Growth of our sport
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Portland has more whitewater within 2 hours drive than you can shake a stick at. At least until global warming melts all the glaciers. I do think the areas that have close access to whitewater are the ones that have the best chance of growing active populations of canoeists. I'm always surprised at how far people are willing to drive in other parts of the country. Myself, I've always made it a point to live where I recreate.
Hmmm...if your reasoning on this was correct, why would there be so many WW kayaks out there?? If you look at the ratio of c-boats to 'yaks on any given day on any given river/whitewater park/etc. then I think you will see where your biggest potential growth segment is. Check out the WW park in Charlotte, NC if you want to see how well your theory goes.johnd wrote:Sorry, the sport is not going to grow because there are only so many rivers, and major cities are generally not located near whitewater. Therefore, people have to spend hours and hours driving. The only people willing to do that are fanatics or retired people with nothing much to do. You can make all kinds of suggestions, analysis, but your population base is rather limited, particularly for something that requires such a large investment. Even skiing is cheaper, investment wise.
Your best bet to increase the number of people in the sport would be to forget about the boats, and concentrate on building whitewater parks in each city.
Cost can be a factor but if you are looking at used boats (what most people start off with) a C1 and a 'yak are pretty close to identical in cost (outfitting the C1 will cost around the differetial in paddle cost for equal quality for single v/s double blades). Add in the cost of a skirt to the yak, and you aren't that far off from an OC1 (and don't forget the paddle cost). It's not a cheap sport, but neither is golf or a lot of other sports when u get down to it.
Certainly anyone who advocates constructing whitewater parks as an alternative, much less producing any favorable increase in participation of open canoeing.... surely has a career ahead of them in Washington (DC not the State)..... I also suggest Fox New Channel ... and might also ask, did you work covering election results in any 21 century Presidential Election?johnd wrote:Sorry, the sport is not going to grow because there are only so many rivers, and major cities are generally not located near whitewater. Therefore, people have to spend hours and hours driving. The only people willing to do that are fanatics or retired people with nothing much to do. You can make all kinds of suggestions, analysis, but your population base is rather limited, particularly for something that requires such a large investment. Even skiing is cheaper, investment wise.
Your best bet to increase the number of people in the sport would be to forget about the boats, and concentrate on building whitewater parks in each city.
Even the Alleged cost disparity of skiing being cheap- reeks of an mutually unattainable concept... unless meaning some sort of flat land skiing, and even that would be comparable to flat land paddling in term of expenditure....
I'll just leave saying - Sir, you must of hit your head... please have that Craniocerebral Trauma treated.... (gotta watch out for them closet-kayakers.... whitewater park for open canoeing
) .. of course I more than willing to be educated on the matter. 
I've posted this before, but it seems relevant again since we're connecting kayaks and canoes.
See
http://outside.away.com/outside/culture ... ion-1.html
See
http://outside.away.com/outside/culture ... ion-1.html
And the most relevant part:
Meanwhile, kayak companies have a decidedly less frightening plan to dig themselves out of their hole. The rebuilding effort, say many company leaders, depends on spreading the message that paddling can be a safe and easy activity. "For Teva, pushing the envelope means greater accessibility," says Joel Heath, the river-footwear company's marketing director. "It doesn't mean hucking your meat bigger." Heath points to the ski industry, which focuses on groomed cruiser runs, as a good model, and notes that one benefit of kayaking's boom years is the resulting dozens of urban whitewater parks. And there are still the classic Class III floats through the wilderness.
Meanwhile, kayak companies have a decidedly less frightening plan to dig themselves out of their hole. The rebuilding effort, say many company leaders, depends on spreading the message that paddling can be a safe and easy activity. "For Teva, pushing the envelope means greater accessibility," says Joel Heath, the river-footwear company's marketing director. "It doesn't mean hucking your meat bigger." Heath points to the ski industry, which focuses on groomed cruiser runs, as a good model, and notes that one benefit of kayaking's boom years is the resulting dozens of urban whitewater parks. And there are still the classic Class III floats through the wilderness.
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Louie
Whitewater parks, I rather turn my daughter over to a bunch of drunk chicacolla apaches, than put a newbie on one of those we ain't even that fond of the upper Ocoee and at one time it was a real river.
I don't think you will win many friends with that view point but the American Kayaker will love you.
I don't think you will win many friends with that view point but the American Kayaker will love you.
Take initiative! If you don't see something happening that you want to in the boating activity, make it happen, don't just complain about the deficiency.
Work in groups. When trying to involve a young person, bring two along--make sure they see the presence of peers in the sport. I was lucky in the sense that I didn't mind spending many weekends in the presence of people three times my age, but I know the majority of young people would take issue with that.
How do we draw student-aged children away from the common distractions and pastimes? I think we need to make some shifts in the perception of the sport so that it is both more accurate and appealing. When someone first becomes involved with the sport, they need to be able to see where they can go, what they can do.
1. Stimulate, inspire, and provoke. Whitewater boating is what initially caught my interest, but soon I began to look for something more than just classes I could take. Luckily I was able to find some extraordinarily inspirational mentors who were able to work with me and help me progress far more than any class could have done. They helped me to raise my aspirations, set my sights on higher goals, ideals, perfection. I for one have always been attracted to a challenge, whether it is merely personal improvement or a set mark. The recreational aspect of the sport is all well and good, but the slalom is what really caught my attention. I wanted something I could train for, where I could see quantifiable improvement and development. Since I am currently away at school I have not had the time to pursue or access to boating I originally hoped, and have taken up rowing in the meantime. For me one of the most attractive aspects of that sport is the difficulty of high performance and simple hard work needed to achieve goals.
2. Set those goals. Tell yourself you will paddle a certain run before a given time is up. Run clean in a race. Go faster. Catch that eddy you always watched pass by as you drifted downstream. Paddle aggressively; don't be a passive boater. I believe that such ideals will prove more attractive to a younger population.
3. Be that role model that a student will want to learn from and emulate. If there are new boaters around, regardless of age, present yourself with utmost integrity. Make sure that the newbies see the best sides of the boating community and don't let a single bad day turn students away.
I only provide personal feelings because I hope that as one of the young people whose peers you are trying to involve, I may be able to provide some insight that other people are overlooking. Clearly not everyone is going to feel the same way as I do about what we need to do, but on a more conceptual basis than what has already been mentioned, I hope this helps.
For the record, I am very much against hybridization of boats. If you initially buy a generalist boat, you will end up buying more specialized boats tending towards your inclinations and the broad-spectrum boat will quickly be outperformed and go unused. If you are trying to satisfy an entry-level market, provide the ability to attain the skill set needed to paddle the more difficult boat; do not just manufacture something the student will quickly tire of.
On a closing note, growth does not need to be excessive. I don't think anyone here wants paddling to become the next baseball or soccer, with every child in the country trying it at some point or another. I think we do need to achieve a critical mass that is self-sustaining. Size does not need to grow dramatically, just ensure a constant influx of new boaters who will both purchase new boats and continue the development of the sport.
Nate
Work in groups. When trying to involve a young person, bring two along--make sure they see the presence of peers in the sport. I was lucky in the sense that I didn't mind spending many weekends in the presence of people three times my age, but I know the majority of young people would take issue with that.
How do we draw student-aged children away from the common distractions and pastimes? I think we need to make some shifts in the perception of the sport so that it is both more accurate and appealing. When someone first becomes involved with the sport, they need to be able to see where they can go, what they can do.
1. Stimulate, inspire, and provoke. Whitewater boating is what initially caught my interest, but soon I began to look for something more than just classes I could take. Luckily I was able to find some extraordinarily inspirational mentors who were able to work with me and help me progress far more than any class could have done. They helped me to raise my aspirations, set my sights on higher goals, ideals, perfection. I for one have always been attracted to a challenge, whether it is merely personal improvement or a set mark. The recreational aspect of the sport is all well and good, but the slalom is what really caught my attention. I wanted something I could train for, where I could see quantifiable improvement and development. Since I am currently away at school I have not had the time to pursue or access to boating I originally hoped, and have taken up rowing in the meantime. For me one of the most attractive aspects of that sport is the difficulty of high performance and simple hard work needed to achieve goals.
2. Set those goals. Tell yourself you will paddle a certain run before a given time is up. Run clean in a race. Go faster. Catch that eddy you always watched pass by as you drifted downstream. Paddle aggressively; don't be a passive boater. I believe that such ideals will prove more attractive to a younger population.
3. Be that role model that a student will want to learn from and emulate. If there are new boaters around, regardless of age, present yourself with utmost integrity. Make sure that the newbies see the best sides of the boating community and don't let a single bad day turn students away.
I only provide personal feelings because I hope that as one of the young people whose peers you are trying to involve, I may be able to provide some insight that other people are overlooking. Clearly not everyone is going to feel the same way as I do about what we need to do, but on a more conceptual basis than what has already been mentioned, I hope this helps.
For the record, I am very much against hybridization of boats. If you initially buy a generalist boat, you will end up buying more specialized boats tending towards your inclinations and the broad-spectrum boat will quickly be outperformed and go unused. If you are trying to satisfy an entry-level market, provide the ability to attain the skill set needed to paddle the more difficult boat; do not just manufacture something the student will quickly tire of.
On a closing note, growth does not need to be excessive. I don't think anyone here wants paddling to become the next baseball or soccer, with every child in the country trying it at some point or another. I think we do need to achieve a critical mass that is self-sustaining. Size does not need to grow dramatically, just ensure a constant influx of new boaters who will both purchase new boats and continue the development of the sport.
Nate
Yheaaa
Well said Nate, This is the post i'v been waiting for. Well thought out, and well communicated
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker
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Yeah, well-written Nate - it must drive you crazy reading Louie's sentences!
You make a lot of good points, like having whoever you're trying to encourage see their peers in the sport. Like you, I had to adapt a bit to spending my rec time with "older people".
Probably the best point is to get off our butts if we see gaps and make something happen (and many on this probably do make themselves available as mentors, coaches, club leaders etc.).
For several years I whined & moaned about Ontario having a big slalom race just for open canoes, and I wished there was something remotley like it in BC - I even wrote a letter to the editor of Rapid after they did a piece on the Gull R race proclaiming that open canoeing was alive-and-well in Canada: maybe in Ontario, but west of the rockies there was few paddlers, fewer instructors, manufacturers, retailers, and no events of any kind.
After that much wishing for an event, I finally just organized one myself! We now (year 3 coming up Sept 2010) have a little OC slalom race. It's really just 20 or 30 people from the local club, though it brought a few out of the woodwork, and I think it will grow, and it is refreshed some relationships with some local businesses.
Eventually I hope more paddlers from N. BC, Victoria, Seattle and Portland will show up. But the big indicators of success will be when we get some kayakers trying it, and especially when we need a parent-child class to get younger people involved.
So, if you can think of a market in your community, like a ski club, college program, scout group or whatever - make a poster, send some e-mails, do some media, whatever. If there's newbies around, help 'em out. And if there's a race, clinic or event that you wish you had, just organize one! I hear Louie's created a little get together that's helping to promote canoeing - if you can't travel to ALF, make something in your region, of whatver scale.
Pat.
p.s. Having a few canoes going to kayak-dominate festivals or paddling with kayak clubs is also a good way to go.
You make a lot of good points, like having whoever you're trying to encourage see their peers in the sport. Like you, I had to adapt a bit to spending my rec time with "older people".
Probably the best point is to get off our butts if we see gaps and make something happen (and many on this probably do make themselves available as mentors, coaches, club leaders etc.).
For several years I whined & moaned about Ontario having a big slalom race just for open canoes, and I wished there was something remotley like it in BC - I even wrote a letter to the editor of Rapid after they did a piece on the Gull R race proclaiming that open canoeing was alive-and-well in Canada: maybe in Ontario, but west of the rockies there was few paddlers, fewer instructors, manufacturers, retailers, and no events of any kind.
After that much wishing for an event, I finally just organized one myself! We now (year 3 coming up Sept 2010) have a little OC slalom race. It's really just 20 or 30 people from the local club, though it brought a few out of the woodwork, and I think it will grow, and it is refreshed some relationships with some local businesses.
Eventually I hope more paddlers from N. BC, Victoria, Seattle and Portland will show up. But the big indicators of success will be when we get some kayakers trying it, and especially when we need a parent-child class to get younger people involved.
So, if you can think of a market in your community, like a ski club, college program, scout group or whatever - make a poster, send some e-mails, do some media, whatever. If there's newbies around, help 'em out. And if there's a race, clinic or event that you wish you had, just organize one! I hear Louie's created a little get together that's helping to promote canoeing - if you can't travel to ALF, make something in your region, of whatver scale.
Pat.
p.s. Having a few canoes going to kayak-dominate festivals or paddling with kayak clubs is also a good way to go.
THank You
I would like to think everyone for there post, It amazes me how the outlook changes region to region. In the South you can feel it in the air things are growing> It is not uncommon for me to boat with 6 or mor OC's on any giveing weekend. 10 years ago I could bearly find 10 to boat with on the east coast. To to all th OC soldiers outhere doing there thing thank you. I would like to thank Craig, Louie, Kaz and (the list is to long). For all there hard work and dedication to the sport for years. I hope that it will get grow not for the biz but more so others can enjoy this sport that has been so great to me.
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lots of good posts.
Phil: You are definitely on to something with the following statement regarding Washington, D.C.:
"Certainly anyone who advocates constructing whitewater parks as an alternative, much less producing any favorable increase in participation of open canoeing.... surely has a career ahead of them in Washington (DC not the State)..... I also suggest Fox New Channel ... and might also ask, did you work covering election results in any 21 century Presidential Election?"
The solution: government grants for canoeing, or even better, a government welfare state. Unfortunately, the government gave all the money to the banks and GM, and there's nothing left for Mohawk. Which is unfortunate, because a government welfare state would increase people's leisure time, give them more time to paddle canoes. Think of that, the next time the presidential election comes around.
But the real problem is the defection of young men and women from the sport. Young men spend all their time chasing women around. Then they catch one, get married, and pretty soon, responsibilities, work, spouse who hates getting left alone, no more canoeing. Same with women.
So perhaps the answer is the promotion of tandem canoeing. That will increase the divorce rate, and therefore, increase the population of single people with a need to fill leisure time, and buy more canoes.
But seriously, I enjoy paddling my Viper 12, so please keep up the good work, and hope Mohawk stays in business. Now, back to studying Marxist theory.
Phil: You are definitely on to something with the following statement regarding Washington, D.C.:
"Certainly anyone who advocates constructing whitewater parks as an alternative, much less producing any favorable increase in participation of open canoeing.... surely has a career ahead of them in Washington (DC not the State)..... I also suggest Fox New Channel ... and might also ask, did you work covering election results in any 21 century Presidential Election?"
The solution: government grants for canoeing, or even better, a government welfare state. Unfortunately, the government gave all the money to the banks and GM, and there's nothing left for Mohawk. Which is unfortunate, because a government welfare state would increase people's leisure time, give them more time to paddle canoes. Think of that, the next time the presidential election comes around.
But the real problem is the defection of young men and women from the sport. Young men spend all their time chasing women around. Then they catch one, get married, and pretty soon, responsibilities, work, spouse who hates getting left alone, no more canoeing. Same with women.
So perhaps the answer is the promotion of tandem canoeing. That will increase the divorce rate, and therefore, increase the population of single people with a need to fill leisure time, and buy more canoes.
But seriously, I enjoy paddling my Viper 12, so please keep up the good work, and hope Mohawk stays in business. Now, back to studying Marxist theory.
No worries on the stateor Future of Mohawk Canoes, My intrest is 95% personal. I myself would love to see the sport grow enough that the sponsored boaters get more than gear. And this is not for personal gain, as much to see the people that have based there life on the sport be able to make a living doing it. For the companies to be able to justify spending more on r&D, this will let us all have more fun. hades it would be nice to see good high quility videos, there again more people=more money=more fun for all. So please dont think that all of my post are about the canoe company; it just supports my real passion.
richard
richard
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker