How do you slow down

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:24 pm

Your boat is fine.... and the length is not the problem, whether too short or too long... learn to paddle what you got, unless it's a POS... while I wouldn't be caught dead in that boat, I've seen many folks paddle it more than adequately... actually very very well (not to be a name dropper) to know it's not a POS... I really believe - there is no reason for you to throw money at the problem... unless simply dissatisfied.

Most everyone has said either faster or slower, and I agree. However they are not mutually exclusive. It's not a matter of fast or slow, but more of when to do both. I find myself changing up throughout the rapid. Craig Smerda asked about anyone still back ferrying, and I answer an "Emphatic Yes". And would guess a great many do, it's just such a casual thing - it's not easily noticed. Remember a back ferry is not, just backstroking upstream. That's called paddling upstream, or paddling upstream backwards. You have to match angle -to currents strength - to paddle strength. A slight reveres sweep, that might look like a forward underwater recovery. Followed by one backstroke. And the boats goes to one side. No forward need. A second back stroke and the boat goes further, or changes ferry to opposite side. You do not have to go directly 90degree across current, just going to the side while still progressing downstream. And remember a backstroke is one of the strongest (individual) strokes you have - it's a big lever. You might even initiate a turn or spin, by first doing a small back-ferry component to slow down forward moment. And then while your spin is happening, the boat will be traveling less downstream. I would make a game of practicing this, by going through easy rapids (within your comfort factor) and never taking a forward. Just back-ferry to this slot, stop float through, and proceed to back ferry to next "Vee - slot - drop" stop float through, and so on.

Also look for slow water, paddle into it... to help slow down. Often below an eddy there is slower moving water, so maybe dive into this - before heading over to the next eddy. Slow and smooth. Notice and look for current fluctuations... use the differing flows to help turn and spin the boat... hint - one end in fast, other in slow. They both may be headed in same direction, just at different speeds. Also just go from slower downstream flow, to slower downstream flow. Try ferrying (forward ferry) from one, then stop and float down a bit.... then ferry again to next slower current and stop... and then do three good (forward) strokes to drop/slot/vee and eddy out.

Head for a rock mid stream... the water upstream of it will often have a large pillow. Use this to your advantage, just not so close you (actually touch and) pin. You can float right up to, all the while slowing down. Practice - it works! And then decide which side to flow off with. You can add the back ferry, and practically stall. BTW this is a great way to boat scout, or even check for down trees.

I do forward ferrys, but I'm sure you do these also... if not shame on you... get to a Kaz class fast.

I usually find slow to be better than fast, but sometimes speed is your best friend. However often it only requires a well time stroke of two. One or two before the drop, and a good one at the bottom. Because when you get down to it, the best you can really get is hull speed. And in these shorter boats, max (or near max) hull speed is often just 1 or 2 strokes away. Power is often more needed, or what you are trying to gain. And it sounds like, you are on to the road to doing better power strokes (or working with a game plan in mind). Doing 3-4-5 well timed strokes is way way better than flailing from top to bottom, or going so fast you don't have a moment to think.

I also question your eddy turns, if the back of the boat is getting caught and spinning you out... you maybe not really drawing up into the eddy... more just stalling out-or- going through... and not finishing up on a draw and stopping. A boat should not spin if in the eddy, it may get pushed back out.. .because of upstream current, but not simply spin out.

I'm typing faster than thinking, so will stop...

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:39 pm

In reading over some of your replies about how narrow the channels are and how shallow the water is, you may just have to run it straight down and use a back stroke where you can. If there isn't a lot of current differential, the eddys are going to be small and weak at holding you in.

Duck out of the main flow where you can and don't worry if it won't hold you long. It sounds like you are just trying to avoid piling up on the guy grounded out in the shallow channel in front of you. Been there and done that. Eddy hop where you can, where you can't, let it roll.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:03 pm

jscottl67 wrote:In reading over some of your replies about how narrow the channels are and how shallow the water is, you may just have to run it straight down and use a back stroke where you can. If there isn't a lot of current differential, the eddys are going to be small and weak at holding you in. . .

in this case it's simple to just forward/backward ferry from left to right, never dropping downstream... and would argue - that if it's an eddy in slow current, then you should be able to just camp out in it... it may not be a dynamic eddy turn, but way easy to ferry into and wait...

when following I always have an alternative path, before proceeding... it may just be a little eddy to stop in... put never proceed without a plan B (or C)... just my normal mode... have a Plan-A and Plan-B... I often boat scout w/a certain line in mind, but always know I can call it off and head elsewhere.... I've been boating long enough to not trust the guy ahead me, to doing what I think he should do or go, and always assume he may not be able to get there.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:08 pm

I was going to emphasize what's been said about using eddies to break up longer rapids, so that you're never picking up too much steam. And I was going to suggest you look at the rapid at about 4-6 mins of this video from "Milkman", some people hits lots of eddies and can buy themselves as much time as they want, others would be catching up to the boaters in front of them.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mscantlebury#p/u

But you've kinda mootified that line of discussion. Can't fit a 13' boat into a 10' eddy in an inch of water.

From what you've described, I think you probably would get a lot out of working on your reverse pries/j's and improving your ability to backferry a bit.

Pat.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:09 pm

Slalom racing advances the skillz... it makes you go across currents and lines through the river you normally wouldn't take... you'll learn from it if you do it enough... anyone can float down the green water and catch an eddy... and that's all I've got to say about that.

Right Phil, Kaz, Dooley or anyone else that regulary slalom races or has in the past?

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:10 pm

I agree with you Phil, but I've been in places that are shallow and narrow that for a short distance you just gotta let it roll. It's usually only a few seconds, but there just isn't room for much else without seriously risking a broach. When he is saying barely the width of the boat in the channel, sounds tight for doing a lot to me???

Lengthy · Post by **Lengthy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:13 pm

If you think about it, you really wont go faster than the water speed by just floating. (assuming it's not a waterfall)
I know if I just cruise down thru a rapid it does feel like I'm going very fast also but when I'm driving the boat around in the rapid I feel I'm at a much more reasonable speed. Maybe try getting around a little more in the rapid. Like instead of going from point A to B to get thru a rapid try breaking it down more and go from point A to B to C to D etc. to get thru a rapid. This would be where the planning ahead advice comes into play that was suggested earlier. Don't forget, there's slower water behind bigger holes that you can use like an eddy. That's all I got. Just another point of view that may help.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:20 pm

Wow, what a lot of advice. A lot of it good, some conflicting, overall probably confusing.

JR, I would recommend you go out with a OC1 paddler you know who can do the things you want to do and have them watch what you're doing and coach you. Taking a course from Kaz is a great idea as well.

My one suggestion would be to practice what you do learn in slower water where you can control the boat speed and practice catching those eddies and techniques for slowing the boat down. Then gradually move up to faster more challenging rapids.

When I was learning to paddle, I would hit every eddy and surf every wave, no matter how insignificant, working my way down a river--hence the nickname "milkman" given to me by a friend.

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:47 pm

milkman wrote: When I was learning to paddle, I would hit every eddy and surf every wave, no matter how insignificant.

Thats an excellent piece of advice. It's only through doing that that you get to learn what the water is doing, what effect it has on your boat, the way you lean forward, back, side etc and the effect it has and what strokes help, how to feather your blade and when to let the current help you, and when to put in powerful strokes or just corrective ones. You'll fall in a lot, so learn to roll asap to give you the confidence to let rip and find the limitations of the boat.

it teaches you how to read water and what to look for. I actually think the issue you have is not actually "going too fast" but rather, feeling out of control.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:49 pm

jscottl67 wrote:I agree with you Phil, but I've been in places that are shallow and narrow that for a short distance you just gotta let it roll. It's usually only a few seconds, but there just isn't room for much else without seriously risking a broach. When he is saying barely the width of the boat in the channel, sounds tight for doing a lot to me???

that low???

....I'd just place my paddle down to the side on bottom and stop - or bend forward, reach down, and do the same.

BigMike wrote:
milkman wrote:

totally agree

jroneil · Post by **jroneil** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:15 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0vOTtjn ... re=channel

This is the video I am talking about from the 42 sec to 1.53 mark they appear to be going fairly slow now that could be the video and they could be dragging bottom or the current could be slow. They are not eddieing out they are just running through when I get in a situation like that I appear to be going much faster. I wanted to know if they were doing anything special there.
I am also talk about situations even narrower than that and the water is rushing an example would be the Black river in Vermont in the class III gorge I did that on reflex alone you go down a shoot turn left then right then I eddied out behind a big rock then took off again the gorge is about 15 ft wide and straight up on both side lot of fun but very quick I want know if there was a way to slow down in that type of situation

Also lot of good information in this thread to

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:37 am

I guess you could try dumping & standing up, or broaching!

I don't see anything special they're doing there to slow down, other than scraping on the river bottom.

They're either slowing down by hitting bottom or hitting rocks, or by catching parts of slower currents or eddies in some rare cases. In the spots where a boat does manage to float freely down the rapid, perhaps you'd feel like you were going too fast? Not much to do in there. But presumably they've get their eye on the next eddy or pool to pause and break up the rapid.

Pat.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:38 am

I agree with Craig go run some sticks, it will build skill faster than anyway I know. I also float a lot sideways or somewhat sideways. I feel this lets me use the water to go slow and then get speed fast by pointing where I want to go and put on the gas. Time in boat is the best way to figure your fav. technique out. Run gates=hucking hard drops

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:55 am

nothing special there. except for the way louie slows down by jumping out of his boat, and then lets it float away.. (:oops: weak swim there mr. master swim technician! i dunno, maybe a roll might be quicker in a situation like that

)

JR from your posts, It sounds like theres no room to move, so you need;
1. to find a bigger creek to paddle on, or
2. forget about slowing down, just point it downstream and enjoy the ride. if somebody gets stuck in front of you, run em down.

jroneil · Post by **jroneil** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:56 am

I probably should have post the video sooner but I got a lot of good information