how low can you go?
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certainly depends on the boat
while all of my open boat are definately higher, the latest creation is going to start out with a 6.5" saddle. i guess we'll see how that feels for awhile and go from there. i will say that while sitting in the partially frozen river a couple of days ago that it felt surprisingly stable at that height.
- TheKrikkitWars
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I met a very interesting Slovak coach at the Slalom Europeans, who was of the view that competitors getting low in boats is a symptom of C1'ers pushing a faulty design axiom to the limits of it's performance; he thinks that sticking with boats which are substantially flatter and wider than their kayak equvalents is holding people back, and from seeing a couple of Vadja Martikan's (one of which was paddled by the eponymous Olympian himself) I'm convinced.John Coraor wrote:certainly consistent with the direction a number of the top C-1 slalom paddlers in the U.S. seem to trending in. I understand that several are using 2-2.5" seats. The seat in the used Galasport Loco that I bought from Issac Schmidt this summer was about 2.5" high. (I had to raise it another 1.5" and am toying with making it higher still.)
His argument was roughly this: "People remove their saddle so they can be more stable when they move agressively in their boats, but lose the leveage to really charge.
If we make boats more like a kayak, and have the paddler high they'll be faster, more efficient, and there won't be the same risk of capsize when being agressive, because the round bottoms don't just go from under you"
Contravertial perhaps, but there is definately some evidence to back it up.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
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ezwater:ezwater wrote:John Coroar---- Many of the c-1 competitors have been kneeling low from childhood. Their bone growth and joint shape probably accomodated to it. Adam Clawson was in c-1 by age 9, if not earlier. When I bought my Zealot from him, it had a board kneeling thwart probably 4.5 inches off the bottom. He's a pretty big guy.
Certainly younger paddlers typically have greater flexibility and thus greater tolerance for a low kneel. However, I don't believe that starting a low kneel in childhood is a necessary requirement. I didn't start paddling decked canoes until I had graduated from college. My Batmax that I paddled when I was in my late 20s had a 4.25 in. seat. I would frequently take late afternoon trips down the Lower Yough in that boat without getting out or taking a knee break until I got to the take-out at River's End. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I can get to the bottom of the rapid before the urge to give my knees relief becomes irresistable.
John
I totally agree with Chris, stability and balance is something you can train but the extra leverage and dynamics is sometimes exactly what u need.
And yet I would suggest that beginners start with a lower saddle since u can master the offside strokes and balance in general and then raise the seat an inch or two.
And yet I would suggest that beginners start with a lower saddle since u can master the offside strokes and balance in general and then raise the seat an inch or two.
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i'm with those guys... there can be a "too low" though i'll never see it.
I can paddle my creeker all day with it's saddle at 6". the kayakers usually need a break before i do.
Then the saddle in my race boat is 4.5" and i can't stand it. I won't even practice in the boat because it such a torture machine.
note to self...FIX THAT!
I can paddle my creeker all day with it's saddle at 6". the kayakers usually need a break before i do.
Then the saddle in my race boat is 4.5" and i can't stand it. I won't even practice in the boat because it such a torture machine.
note to self...FIX THAT!
Larry
I had this debate years ago with Michal, whilst we were sitting above the start line at Seo, or it might have been Merano . Anyway, whilst the theory behind it works, in practice, whilst you would gain in straight line speed, you lose in pivoting ability and in carving. In other words, you lose the very reason for paddling a c1 in the first place. Whats the point of effectively paddling a kayak but with one blade and kneeling?TheKrikkitWars wrote:I met a very interesting Slovak coach at the Slalom Europeans, who was of the view that competitors getting low in boats is a symptom of C1'ers pushing a faulty design axiom to the limits of it's performance; he thinks that sticking with boats which are substantially flatter and wider than their kayak equvalents is holding people back, and from seeing a couple of Vadja Martikan's (one of which was paddled by the eponymous Olympian himself) I'm convinced.John Coraor wrote:certainly consistent with the direction a number of the top C-1 slalom paddlers in the U.S. seem to trending in. I understand that several are using 2-2.5" seats. The seat in the used Galasport Loco that I bought from Issac Schmidt this summer was about 2.5" high. (I had to raise it another 1.5" and am toying with making it higher still.)
His argument was roughly this: "People remove their saddle so they can be more stable when they move agressively in their boats, but lose the leveage to really charge.
If we make boats more like a kayak, and have the paddler high they'll be faster, more efficient, and there won't be the same risk of capsize when being agressive, because the round bottoms don't just go from under you"
Contravertial perhaps, but there is definately some evidence to back it up.
If I was designing a slalom boat today, yes it would be narrower than the last boat I helped modify the design of (the extrabat). It would have much sharper chines/edges, and the hull would be more rounded in the middle (not at the rear) - but it would still be a c1, not a kayak.
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I think that was the idea he was advocating; not a literal copy of a kayak, but taking all the best bits of the modern design principles.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
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i disagree. i don't really find any loss of leverage with lower seat, just better balance. if my paddle is the same length, how would i have less power with 3" seat than 6" seat? it's not like it's a fulcrum. i just have my t-grip hand higher, right? and it cracks me up to talk about advantages in a c1. the only advantage is that it's fun, honestly.
oops,
There is some turning advantage with a C1. Our mass is closer to the pivot axis, thus giving us a slightly smaller polar moment of inertia. Imagine a skater going from arms spread to arms close will increase the speed of rotation (conservation of polar momentum).
That ends today's physics lesson.
There is some turning advantage with a C1. Our mass is closer to the pivot axis, thus giving us a slightly smaller polar moment of inertia. Imagine a skater going from arms spread to arms close will increase the speed of rotation (conservation of polar momentum).
That ends today's physics lesson.
Bob P