Robson - Finkenmeister

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:46 am

Chuck,
Good news! You're staying open minded about the Finkenmeister. I agree that some kayak designs make reasonably good C1's. I would guess that most don't however. I've got the Pyranha H3 245 or 255 as my backup new creeker in case I can't get my hands on the Finkenmeister.

If the Finkenmeister is a successful design and helps Robson, either by improving their status as a boat builder or by (who knows?) making them some money, there may be some other bona-fide and improved plastic C1 designs hitting the market in the future - perhaps more often than the present rate of one every 10 years or so. A few new designs (I'm dreaming now) would probably make better C1 boaters of us all

, just as the new kayak designs have made kayakers with relatively modest skills look hot in that hole or on that local creek.

Most C1ers these days don't know what it was like to paddle a new plastic C1 design.

They have accepted the fact that 1) plastic boat manufacturers are not interested in the 'meager' C1 market, and 2) converting kayaks is the only way to get into a durable plastic boat.

SYOTR,
Bruce

chuck naill · Post by **chuck naill** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:57 pm

Dear Bruce,

By the way, I love this forum. Everybody is respectful of all opinions expressed. Thanks!

Since you bring up more good points about the possibility of newer designs, what about the Millbrook boats. John has several designs according to his web site. I have not gotten many feedbacks from a posting about these boats. I am assuming that glass just does not hold up for most rivers we might paddle and there is not much experiance about these designs

Regards and SYOTR
CHuck/Knoxville

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:46 am

Chuck,

I also appreciate the fact that people are respectful to each others opinion on this board

!

I didn't mean to say that all kayak conversions are inferior than a boat designed as a C1, what I meant to say was that a properly designed C1 has the work better as C1 than a converted kayak.
But then there are again the individual factors like paddler size and weight, use and paddling style.

I have looked several times at the Millbrook site, John has several interesting boats, but the main thing for me is not the fact that his boats are composite, but more that I tend to prefer rather shorter boats with planing hulls, while most Millbrook boats are either slalom boats or, at least from my prospective, have strong slalom boat elements in their design as well as displacement hulls and tend to be fairly long.

martin

PS: Just found this site while surfing the net, there seems to be someone selling Robson boats, including Finkenmeisters in the Mid-West (Michigan) as well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... gory=36122

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:03 am

Chuck,
I considered the Hornet (Millbrook) but for creeking need a shorter boat than 11 ft and need primary stability equivalent to the Cascade. The Hornet is 26" wide - about 2" narrower than the Cascade. If I'm going to get back on the horse in serious water I need a boat that allows me to set my knees deep and wide in the boat for control and stability, something akin to my dear old (but too long) Cascade. I wish Bob P would update the Hornet design. It would be great to have a durable and lightweight new creek boat. Multi-mile carries to the put-ins of California creeks would be alot easier. I'd bet that carrying a 30 lb boat would make my kayaking buddies think again about composites, especially if the boat held up really well. And it would be fast......(I dreaming again).
SYOTR,
Bruce

msims · Post by **msims** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:00 am

What do people think of the price of the Finkenmeister? 965 USD sounds a tad high ... but I'm not sure.

Mike.

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:35 am

Martin,
I just accessed the EBay site, and there was the Finkenmeister. I liked the color. $965 is an OK price considering there is no charge for shipping. My biggest concern would be that the boat will not be available until the Spring of 2004. I want to get in the boat sometime this winter to be ready for the Spring. If they say available in the Spring that can easily mean it will be Summer by the time the boat arrives and then it usually needs some 'tuning'. That would be late for me, but if I had to, I'd wait I suppose. I'm counting on the new distributor in Florida to get my boat by mid-winter.
SYOTR,
Bruce

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:38 am

Hello Ronnie Dilbeck!
Can you give us an estimate when the Finkenmeister will be available?
Regards,
Bruce Farrenkopf

marshwater · Post by **marshwater** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:35 am

Thanks for the reply everyone! It will probably be more like february befor the boats get here. I have requested enough finks for everyone that is interested + a few. I will be notified when the container is shipped off, then I will update everyone. Once the container is shipped it will take four weeks to reach the atlantic shore.

Cheers,

Ronnie

aldenn · Post by **aldenn** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:48 am

a question for finkenmeister owners:

i looked at the pics of this boat on this very website, and the one good pic of the hull shows hard chines and then (it appears) that the boat bows out. So it appears that the hull itself is not the full 28.75 inches advertised. It is hard to tell if this is so.

Anyway, I am wondering if one of you guys who owns the Fink could measure the actual hull itself. Basically -- if im bashing down a rock slide, how much hull am i going to have under me?

By the way, what does "secondary stability" actually mean? I feel as though I want a boat that I will feel balanced on, and that's primary stability. what is secondary?
Alden

Jan_dettmer · Post by **Jan_dettmer** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:59 am

Hej Alden,

Secondary stability is roughly spoken stability on edge. How stable is the boat on edge.
A flat bottom hull will have great initial but not much secondary. A more roundish hull, however, does not change its shape a lot when put on edge, thus it will be pretty stable.
Extreme examples are traditional canoe designs with tons of flare and a round bottom. They do not have great initial but heeling the boat is easy and stable.
On the other hand, planning hulls like late Kayak designs have a flat hull with hard chines, not very stable on edge.

To me, the hull looks like the chines are not too hard and it has some flare midships up to the point where the sides meet the deck. That would mean that waterlinewidth is not 28.75---but I do not have one...

On the river, Jan

chuck naill · Post by **chuck naill** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:30 am

Dear Alden,
I have been learning about secondary stability when paddling the new flat designs. I will try to explain by using a cross bow analogy. Lets say you are peeling out and doing a cross bow stroke. THe boat initally goes up on its side very quickly then there is a point where you are very stable again. That's were it is relativily flat again. It takes some time to get used to, but I think most paddlers will really appreciate the feature.

It looks like that the Finkenmeister has that feature. There is a section on the NRS i.e. Northwest River Supply web site that explains the differant designs and benefits of each, www.nrskayak.com/kayak_terminology.asp.
Best Regards,
Chuck/Tennessee

NZMatt · Post by **NZMatt** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:25 pm

Howdy

Chuck's description of primary, vs. secondary is pretty good. Primary is the stability when the boat is sitting flat in the water and secondayr is the stability on edge (atleast that's how I think of it).

I disagree with Jan about the hull characteristics that lead to these, however. I think a very rounded hull can often lead to minimal primary stability - I've been paddling the Massive Air recently and that definitely has a very rounded hull - and next to no primary stability. A narrow, purely flat bottomed hull will also not be very stable however as it will want to slide to its edge if you get it even very slightly off an even keel - this is the case with my Detonator.

A wide fairly flat hull, however, can be very stable in flatwater, but the transitions from the flat bottom to the steep sides create quite an edge to catch in moving water unless they are very rounded (as in recreational kayaks). Those sharp edges, however form a wonderful (broad?) V-hull profile when you have the boat up on edge and that seems to aid secondary stability. The detonator has great secondary stability due to the double chine structure of the hull - which on edge functions somewhat like a broad-V hull profile. A shallow V hull seems to provide the most primary stability (of course it won't flatspin or playboat at all well) and having chines that act as a V-hull when the boat is edged (to me) seems to improve secondary stability.

What do people think? Does this make sense or am I dreaming this stuff.

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:05 pm

Matt,

My experience with my 2 flat-bottomed boats is that the main factor about secondary stability is the angle of the sides, i.e. wether the boat has flare or tumblehome in the center. Jan is right on this one, I think.

The Finkenmeister for instance has quite a bit of flare in the center section, the with at the bottom is probably only about 25 to 26 inches, while the max width is about 28.75 inches. This makes for a fairly shallow V wide waterline profile when it is put on edge, which gives it tremendous secondary stability. The angle between the side and the bottom is probably somewhere around 110 degrees (rough estimate).

The Delirious however has a significant amount of tumblehome in the center, while width at the bottom is 27 inches, width at the top is probably only 24 - 25 inches. This crates a narrow deep V profile when on edge, which is (at least for someone with my skill level) very unstable. The angle between the sides and the bottom is probably somewhere around 80 degrees.

If anyone disagrees with me, let me know...

Jan, Alden,

Waterline width of the Finkenmeister is probably around 27 inches, depending on your weight.
The edge is in the center and gets rounded towards the bow, towards the stern it stays fairly hard all the way. You can carve beautifully on this edge

.
Overall I would say it has a little less primary stability than an Atom, but secondary stability is way better.

martin

abird · Post by **abird** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:30 pm

martin,

Thanks for the data. The Fink looks like a great boat. Anything that wide I would love to have under me on a creek. There is a reason that slalom c-1s are 28" wide while k-1s are only 24"!

Alden

unipaddle · Post by **unipaddle** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:10 am

My idea of stability is simular to others being primary = flat ; secondary = on edge. I started creeking in conversion boats and relied mostly on secondary stability. After I tried a cboat (cascade) I realized what primary stabilty ment. Then I began to "ride" my primary while using secondary for holding angles. Something a bit shorter and a tad less flat on the deck thant the cascade would be confortable on steep creeks. Honestly I have never paddled the Fink, but it looks like the boat for me.

Ronnie

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Robson - Finkenmeister

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