A new KIND of race...

[sbroam]

Verlen Kruger could keep up with the kayaks in the long distance endurance type races. I've occasionally wondered how he would have done with a similarly configured kayak...

[mattm]

What does kayaking have to do with camping out in the woods for a week? Generalizing buttboaters as "super fairies" makes me guess your age is 11. Most of my paddling friends are buttboaters, one was 5 time national C2 champion, a few are freakin' huge; none are fairies. Fun is fun, and we rib each other constantly, but your generalization is assinine.
Personally, though I only sit in my squirt boat, and stand or kneel in 9 others, I'd think one of those large WW yaks (Jackson makes one) would be the best bet. Swamping with a few days of gear sucks in an open boat, and I'm thinking a spray skirt and enclosed storage would eliminate some portaging and all yard sales.

[kaz]

Millbrook Boats will kick in a little towards prize money for the "Race of the C-entury".
Finding an appropriate river that's accessible for the media, spectators, and the masses would be tricky. Maybe the Delaware in NY, NJ, PA. Nothing really challenging but you could have a 200+ mile race with no problem.
JKaz

[FullGnarlzOC]

If its not challenging, then it takes away from the entire 'spirit' of the race. Its about using paddling skills, survival techniques, and your own good judgement.

What kind of judgement would you really have to exercise on flatwater? or class II for that matter.

Once my skills get up, I will def. be dedicating a lot of time into organizing such an event. An event that evens the playing field. I liked the idea of having it on the Payatte River system.... Have fun with the North Fork. My guess is that alot of people would have to portage most of that.

[FullGnarlzOC]

If you finished such a race - no one would be able to say anything about the size of ur kahunas.

I'm very new to the message board, but I cant help but to bring up the example of "Louie" and "Lengthy"... well if one of them competes in such an event(which I'm sure wouldnt happen)...they almost automatically trumph the other.

You have someone that talks trash about how good they are...."Hey buddy - prove it... race the "Idita-paddle" or whatever it would be called.

Like I said - I'm sure 50% of all paddlers couldnt even start a fire in the rain. 50% of all paddlers, wouldn't be caught dead out in the woods for several days - including International Slalom racers.

[phreon]

Paddling Skills, endurance, exercising good judgement(necessary in this race)...and so forth. But more so, it GETS CANOEING BACK TO ITS ROOOTS!!!!!! When canoeing started it was all about multi-day trips and living in/off of the woods. with or without whitewater - Bill Mason style.

I'm a first year boater, started WW in May - but the number one thing I have realized is... for a sport that is supposed to be somewhat intense, and at the mercy of the elements... there sure are a lot of 'fairys" out there. Starting with buttboaters... super fairys. I'd love to see some of them camp out in the woods of canada for a week - solely by themselves. You guys ever try that? I think some underestimate the skill involved both mentally and physically.


Canoeing needs a race like this.

Some of the folks on this site have been around since the early days of modern whitewater boating....you might want to listen to them. I've been a paddler for about 5 years, but am still a neophyte compared to the majority of folks on this site. That being said, take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

I really think you're missing Bill Mason's philosophy by a wide margin. In my view, he taught about minimizing and redefining hardship. He didn't advocate slugging it out against nature, or espouse any ideas about suffering = manliness that I'm aware of. If anything, he preached being at harmony with nature through the use of his favorite tool, the canoe. It wasn't a device to conquer with, but to explore and understand what modern living has robbed from the average person. The true hardships were just inconvenient interludes between quietly absorbing wilderness's grandeur. By your own words, Bill would be a "fairy".


Have you ever seen Waterwalker? The Canadian Film Board has most of Bill's films online for free viewing. I highly suggest setting aside the 1:20 or so and watching it.

What kind of judgement would you really have to exercise on flatwater? or class II for that matter.

Ok, you REALLY need to study Bill's books and films (philosophy). Maybe your goal is to huck the big drops and gnash your teeth through the rapids while focusing on the end goal; if that's your idea of fun, so be it. However, some folks might consider intense moments or being at the mercy of the weather a sign of poor planning or inexperience. Don't overlook the "easy" water; there is a *lifetime* of learning hidden in those flat stretches and Class II riffles.

If you finished such a race - no one would be able to say anything about the size of ur kahunas.

What are you trying to prove and to who? I'm pretty sure if ya' have ballz o' steel, you know it without having to win a race.

Phreon

[TheKrikkitWars]

Now call me a mentalist, but the Stikine River in BC kind of fits the bill for your race, assuming that decked canoes are allowed it would make for an unusual aspect to the competition (whether people portaging beat the people in the canyon), otherwise you'd essentially be imposing a mandatory 45 Mile Portage...

[mattm]

still getting the feeling if you were sitting around a fire in the middle of the woods, you wouldn't be very competitive.
Personally, I'll take the fire over the competition.

[TheKrikkitWars]

I forgot to mention the best part... canoe or kayak. I'd love to see how those kayaks work when you have to put a weeks+ work of gear in em... or maybe they skimp on the food and luxury camp items...and try and get their energy from fish?! who knowss...

I'm assuming that a canoeist would win the race. What do you think?

I'm afraid that the yakkers who take part in these sorts of events already would probably wipe the floor with canoes, a 20 ft sea kayak is a lot faster than even a 20 ft open canoe, yet can be handled with suprising aplomb on even relatively tight whitewater...

Equally, if you want to do it on really hard whitewater, we'd lose ground on the flat compared to yakkers...

The only way we'd be equal was if it was 200 miles of continuous class 3 and higher...

[FullGnarlzOC]

phreon - I think your missing the general spirit of this race idea. Do you think Iditarod was ALL about 100% fun and enjoying what nature has to offer? This is about overcoming adversity. Not only pushing yourself, but pushing your limits as an individual...the very spirit of the Iditarod.

With that being said, an event like this isn't for everyone. If you want to paddle soley paddle for the sake of enjoying nature, and being 'one with it' then by all means do it. That is 100% while I paddle. I do feel that 'oneness' with the water and my surroundings, it's great. But at the same time... I love a good challenge, as well as many others throughout the world. That's what this race would be designed to be, the ultimate challenge. A race like this would take place maybe every four years or something like that.

And yes I have seen Waterwalker many times, as well as read Path of the Paddle. I have very familiar with Bill Mason and his philosophies.

[TheKrikkitWars]

But at the same time... I love a good challenge, as well as many others throughout the world. That's what this race would be designed to be, the ultimate challenge. A race like this would take place maybe every four years or something like that.

It doesn't sound like the ultimate challenge though, it sounds like an overenthusiastic mess; The idea of having a 200 mile race which starts on an immature river that's class 4/5 and ends on flatwater is like having the the first stage of the Iditarod go to the summit of Denali!

If you want a backcountry endurance race, go compete in one thats already set up; If you want a race over an extended (multi day even) piece of hard whitewater, set that up, but trying in vain to make the two fit together like this and mangling a lot of concepts in the process is painful to watch.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Where theres water, theres flatwater... and frankly - I could care less if there were any flatwater, on it anyway. It could be treacherous rapids the whole time as far as I am concerned. And Im' not looking to run another race. But I see what your saying - naturally by the end of the run, as it gets off its steep gradient, it will be flatwater... well hopefully we could find a place where this isnt the case, but if it was - this is where the race will be won or lost. Say your a great WW paddler, but your flatwater speed isnt as fast as others. Again this is evening the playing field a little bit.

I'm looking to set one up in the future, that is one of a kind. But more than anything I was just starting a topic of debate for shits sake, since most people have had to put their paddling to a rest for a little bit.

If you don't want to read it - then dont. I was hoping that people could see the spirit behind the race and offer some good ideas, rather than being critical. Anyone can be critical of something that isn't a concrete idea in the first place.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Really what I'm trying to say is...people...have fun with this idea and bounce it around.

I WILL be setting up such an event within the next several years. There WILL be a cash prize. I'm thinking of about $5000, with 2-4th winning brand new boats(hopefully donated to the race, for sponsorship in exchange - Kaz from Millbrooks already said he'd be interested in throwing in towards it). Surely this is enough to bring paddlers and competitors of all sorts, out of the wood works.

With that being said, since I am definitely planning on organizing such an event, it would be nice if I had some good feedback. Some of you have already offered their ideas, and some where actually pretty darn good and will be taken into consideration. After all Cboats, is the definitive open boat community, why not get ideas from all of you?

Please say positive in what you say, I'm tired of having to read debby downers. You know what your mommys use to say...If you dont have anything nice to say, then dont say it at all! haha

[KNeal]

I get what your saying, "FullGnarz". You've thought up an idea for a long race that is self-sustaining and has lots of whitewater action over the course of 100+ miles. That type of race is going to appeal to "fringe" boaters. All competitive racers (slalom, freestyle/rodeo, squirt, downriver, etc.) focus on only their one discipline. What you are thinking of is something more in the line of those "eco-challenge" or "Raid Gauloise(sp?)" events that are multi-day and have challenges from start to finish.

The location is going to be the biggest challenge. You have to find a stretch of river (preferrably unimpeded by man-made dams) that can give you the kinds of challenges/rapids you want. There will be some boaters who would do it--I'm not one of them, though.

Good luck with your idea. There is nothing wrong with it, just limiting as to who would be interested in participating.

KNeal

[FullGnarlzOC]

I envision it would get to the point where the paddlers in those disciplines would make the plunge. I think it would get espn coverage to some extent. And I'm sure could get someone to do a documentary on it eventually. That's in dream land, but I think it would be possible, if not strongly possible if the race is set up well enough, mediawise, sponsors, and competitors. One Race to Rule Them All. epic in its entirety.

I like the idea of multiple challenges. Break it down to legs maybe?