Old or New Probe 13

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:26 am

Hi,

I am looking to get into OC-1ing from kayaking, and have settled on the Probe 13 as the boat for me. I was getting ready to buy a new one, but then I came across a "new" Probe 12 (the current model 13) that had been sitting in a local shop's wharehouse since 2001. I am going to check it out in person this weekend.

The older boat outfitted would cost $200 more than the newer boat outfitted and shipped from Mohawk.

Here is my quandry. I have heard of all the issues surrounding the new royalex boats, but have also heard that royalex stiffens and becomes brittle over time to a point where a boat sitting on a shelf for the better part of a decade may have lost some of it's durability. So would the older boat with the older material still be preferable to a new royalex boat, especially given the high price? Has there been any design advances in the Probe series over that time frame that might make the newer boat more desirable?

Also, does anyone know what Mohawk's outfitting was like circa 2001?

Thanks,

Kyle

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:38 am

I am not an expert in such things and don't take my word for it, but I think "new" royalex may actually be older than 2001... the oldest royalex-- the first few iterations of it-- would be back in the 70's. Again, I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that "newer" royalex could refer to late 90's-- maybe even earlier than that? It's possible that the used boat was in fact not made of a higher quality material in the first place, and if someone else can confirm that I'd definitely say go with the new one.
If it was indeed manufactured with better materials, though, I don't know what the effects of aging, etc would be on it.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:08 am

I agree with what's said above, but also don't know the details.

I'd say the most important factor is whether you want a 12' or 13' boat.

What's with all the recent posts from people in western WA?

Pat.
Vancouver, BC

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:14 am

They are the same length. The Probe 12 used to be the Probe 12II, and the Probe 13 was the Probe 12.

I would guess the reason there are a few Washington boaters on here is because there are almost no canoers locally to share information.

Kyle

Bluehole · Post by **Bluehole** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:34 pm

I would gwet a hold of Richard and Sam at Mohawk. They are great to work with and you might find that a brand new boat is the way to go. The $200 that you would save in new would buy a nice paddle.

IMHO

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:00 pm

The real question should be what lenght of boat do I want, so where do ya paddle and what type of water as far as the royalex it is the same from both eras. Please call the shop at 1877 226 6329 or call my cell at 423 902 8014

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:30 pm

Sorry Wiggins, I mis-read and thought there was an actual new Probe 12 (i.e., 12II) in the consideration; didn't realize both boats were 13' Probes.

Stored in a warehouse, the older boat's Royalex shouldn't be a problem age-wise, but I don't think it'll be the old-school bomber stuff. Some might argue that the aging will have helped stiffen it somewhat, compared to brand new Royalex.

Personally, I wouldn't pay $200 more for an old boat when I could get a new one for less. It's not only the hull that has aged, but also the air bags and adhesive outfitting-wise. If there's any problems, you might be more likely to get good customer service buying new from Mohawk than you are clearing out somebody's warehouse?

You could also look and see what Probes are available at Western Canoeing in Abbotsford - they make composite ones, but often seem to have Roayalex around too:
http://www.westerncanoekayak.com/home/S ... Canoes.pdf

Let us know if you ever come north of the border:
http://paddlenet.myfastforum.org/

Pat.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:52 pm

Based on my experience with Mad River and Old Town Royalex, they are not "brittle" at ten years old. Twenty years or more and you might want to think twice about hard use.

My Mad River Synergy was a bit "soft" when new in 1998. Tying the ropes down hard would leave very shallow dents in the Royalex, but they disappeared with time. Now, ten+ years old, it shows no sign of being brittle.

Any ten year old Royalex boat that has not been hammered and scraped is likely to be a good buy.

Mr.DeadLegs · Post by **Mr.DeadLegs** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:02 pm

But would you pay 200.00 more to get a 10 year old boat?

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:06 am

Pat,

Between my girlfriend, the Chilliwack, the Chehalis, and the Thompson I am up north of the border quite a bit. It was actually seeing canoers on the Chehalis last spring that got me thinking about OC-1ing.

The older canoe is the one on sale at Western Canoe and Kayak. After putting end bags in it, the exchange rate, banking fees, import charge, etc. the end price comes out to just over $1700. Assuming that I have to pay the high end of Mohawk's shipping estimate on their website I would pay $1510 for a new Probe 13. The only reason I can see to buy the older boat would be if the material was better, and it seems the general consensus here is that it is not.

Richard,

I'll give you a call about the 12 footer vs 13 footer. I am mostly on medium to high volume rivers, but run the odd class IV creek. The Skykomish River, the Sauk River, the upper Green River Gorge (in Wa.), and the Wenatchee River are all my standard fare. I am starting to get into overnight trips such as the Rogue River Wilderness run, and hades's Canyon on the Snake. My ultimate goal in canoeing is to run the Grand Canyon. From kayaking I know that I am a river runner, not a playboater, so the loss in performance by going from the 12 to the 13 did not concern me. If I will be happier in the long run going with the shorter boat I don't mind the steeper learning curve. Basically I am looking for a all round river runner with some storage space.

Thanks again,

Kyle

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:57 am

Kyle,
Since you're an experienced kayaker, I'd think maybe you'd prefer a more responsive boat - aside from the length difference, the Probe 12 is a bit finer-tuned than the 13, so would be a bit more fun for catching eddies etc. I'm not sure if you have any OC experience, but in the world of ww solo canoes, a Probe 12 is still a very predictable, stable boat, not a scary learning curve.

Maybe see you up here sometime, you know where to find us, some class II-III canoeing pics from Vanc here FYI:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Beaver.Canoe.Club

And you probably know of Paddle Trails in Seattle.

Good luck,
Pat.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:31 am

Pat,

Thanks for the tip. I am starting to rethink the length of the boat. If I ever manage to wake up early enough this week I'll have to call Mohawk (night shifts suck!).

I have next to no OC-1 experience outside of playing around in flatwater canoes on a canal next to my dad's cabin. Not exactly what I would call good practice.

I'll let you know when I am heading north!

Kyle

dwd58 · Post by **dwd58** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:39 pm

I really enjoy my probe 12. Very stable, yet very responsive.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:09 pm

In my opinion I think that the 13 would be the best fit for your needs and future plans. The few time I have used one for an overnighter I love it. I could pack more than just a bivey sack and beans. I have only boat one one big water once, (remember I like creeks) I found the boat to be very responsive. and I think that the extra gear capiciaty is well worth the little extra lenght. But I can also say if your a make do kind of guy (like beans and rice) the 12 maybe the boat of choice If you plan on creek,n (southeasten boys version of huge water). The 13 is drier holds more gear. I would go for the 13. Hope this helps Feel free to call me. My cell is 423 902 8014 just not after 11 pm or before 6 am (my girlfriend anit as physced about canoes as me) i will call you back in a few mins. I promise.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:37 am

Thanks for all the help.

I ended up buying a new Probe 13 from Mohawk today. Went with the 13 over the 12 mainly because of the extra speed and dryer ride. Richard was a ton of help and had great customer service on the phone.

Kyle