Last Gasp for Plastic C1 Designs?

[RodeoClown]

I think Richard and Josh both hit on the two major problems- and why I'm not all that fired up about making a plastic C-1 boat. There's too much "competition" even if it's not direct competition, and there's no consensus on what the boat should be.

If people were really, actually interested in a plastic C-1 river runner, I'd be willing to make one. There are ways of doing it economically and just do a small number (say 15 boats). But I'd have to be assured that there were people who were actually going to buy them. By that I mean put a deposit on one before I went ahead with it. Right now, I've got a good bit of money sunk into the Blackflies, and it'll take some time coming back- that was a risk I was willing to take because it was something I was really excited about- and something I wanted for myself. I'll say right now, i'm NOT doing an Atom type of boat- that's not something I have any interest in. Design by committee kind of scares me, but I'd be willing to play along if people wanted.

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

We are starting to ask the right questions:
1) What type of boat do we want it to be? River runner or creeker?
2) What performance characteristics do we want?
3) What specific shape/dimensions will get us that performance?

I have been harping on one point for awhile here . That is....the boat design must allow the C1er to get his knees wide and low in the boat for optimum balance and control. This is the primary problem I have had with kayak conversions.

SYOTR,

Bruce

[sbroam]

My turn to be Capt. Obvious. I think the problem with the market for C-1s is that the demands are just as varied as they are for the kayak market but with a scant fraction of the volume. We've got big folks, little folks; creekers, big water paddlers, playboaters; aggressive and conservative; etc... I think if you took an average of what everyone wants (by committee!) you'd get something that looks like an updated Atom - a little more rocker, a tweak here, a tweak there. And you'd probably not be as successful as it was when the first Atom came out because now there are so many more kayak hulls that are suitable to convert that make for really good C-1s.

[Sir Adam]

How is this for a thought:

A plastic Sith or Pagan

Design folks already really like... some folks just don't like composite and prefer plastic.

Not sure if you could convince the Shaggy folks to try it, but it is a thought.

[sbroam]

A sentence I typed and deleted was : "With how good some of the coversions are, it would have to be one heckuva boat to sell well." That after spending the afternoon in one of my conversions and having an absolute blast. [It's a superior boat to the "real" C-1 I paddled a couple of weeks ago - my Slasher.]

The Sith is one heckuva boat. That could work.

[Larry Horne]

so my question is; what would you do to improve on a good creeker kayak hull to make it better for c-boaters?
we got bruces request of a wide & flat bottom at the knee area
the only thing I can think of is to make the deck just a tad lower to make rolling easier. but you need volume there, so i don't know..
i'll leave the design to you technical types..i'll just sit back and be a critic

[AJ]

I would like to see a C1 that is 8' to 8.5' in length, semi-displacement river runner/creeker design, PE material for durability, higher sides in the middle of the boat compared to kayak (not to high that causes rolling problems and feels top heavy like the Taureau), can use a higher saddle (7.5" or 8") then kayak conversions, bulkhead, foot pegs and does not need hip pads or thigh straps, unless you want them.

The Big Dog OC1 looks very interesting to me. I know you can outfit their Force as a C1, but then it loses the listed items above. I was hoping Big Dog would make a C1 boat with a few modifications of the OC1 version, lower sides at the top of the boat but higher then a kayak.

This type of boat would let traditional OC1ers and older knee guys move into a C1 boat that is comfortable and fun to paddle. A painful C1 conversion with unfamiliar outfitting holds back a lot of potential paddlers from C1ing IMO.

[BigMike]

good post AJ.

Thing is, you could get a lot of those characteristics by taking a pyranha everest (or large burn even), having a wide-ish c1 cockpit rather than a kayak shape of cockpit, and bringing the hull volume a little further back. Burn would be more edgy but slower.

[Larry Horne]

good start but ....c-1 cockpits are so 1980s!

one big thing i like about kayak conversions is the large cockpit. when your in it you are not under the deck at all. i know it's mental, but to me, it just feels safer.

for anything to get my vote, an extra large keyhole kayak skirt will have to fit it.

told you i'd sit back and criticise...it's so much easier

[sbroam]

Ever sit in a Shaggy boat? The cockpit isn't huge, but it's the right shape and in the right place - the rear deck isn't over your ankles. Also, too big of a cockpit and, thus spray deck, could be an implosion liability.

[BigMike]

good start but ....c-1 cockpits are so 1980s!

one big thing i like about kayak conversions is the large cockpit. when your in it you are not under the deck at all. i know it's mental, but to me, it just feels safer.

for anything to get my vote, an extra large keyhole kayak skirt will have to fit it.

told you i'd sit back and criticise...it's so much easier

what's wrong with the 80's?!

[Larry Horne]

no i haven't been in a Shaggy or even seen one in person. I sure would like to though.

and I am thinking full on creek boat here...safety first

the large cockpit has saved countless lives (yes, of kayakers. but they are humans too)
good skirts don't implode enough for it to be an issue.
i have no problem with the modern pyrhana cockpit..seems just fine to me. Makes for super easy access to your bag and water.
I have a couple boats with c1 cockpits and they are more uncomfortable and less accessible.
Sorry, i try, but i just don't see any advantage over a keyhole kayak. i would love to be enlightened.

[Larry Horne]

good start but ....c-1 cockpits are so 1980s!

what's wrong with the 80's?!

thinking......(oh, i wish i knew how to put pics in the thread!) i guess i love the 80s cars, glam rock, big hair & mullets.
just not the boats so much

[jscottl67]

You've hit it on the head for me Larry - that Cascade cockpit freaks me out - always has. Why bother with a bulkhead when my thighs are pressing up the front deck and it's tight enough on my heels that I felt even a moderate ankle block would mean certain death:(

I know it's all mental, but thats beside the point.

[Craig Smerda]

Prioritize these...

Length
1. 6-7ft
2. 7-8ft
3. 8-9ft
4. 9-10ft
5. 10ft. or longer

Width
1. 26-27"
2. 28-29"
3. 29" or wider

Paddler Capacity
1. 100-150lbs
2. 150-200lbs
3. 200lbs or more

I would use a C1 primarily for...
1. "river running"
2. "playing"
3. "creeking"

I spend most of my time on...
1. class II-III rivers
2. class III-IV rivers

I mostly paddle...
1. low volume water
2. high volume water

What's more important to you?
1. higher volume (resurfacing)
2. lower volume (more slicy)
3. speed

I would prefer a C1 to be...
1. more comfortable
2. more versatile
3. not a kayak

I would like a *new* C1 design to look pretty much like everything that's already been done before.
1. Yes
2. No
3. I don't care as long as it works

This doesn't mean anything... I'm just tinkering with some thoughts for further on down the road. My initial thoughts are that a C1 that is similar to the abilities of the SpanishFly versatility-wise would be a nice niche filler... a boat that plays decent, creeks fine and is actually fun to run rivers with. Not a dedicated creeker, dedicated river runner or dedicated playboat... just something that hit's all the bases for a wide enough variety of paddlers.

FWIW... I don't think the Atom is a horrible boat... but it would be a heckuva' lot more fun if it... rolled easier... played better and was something you could enjoy up to class IV creeking in. You can't have it all... but you can try. I like the premise of being able to have one boat a person could take on a month long paddling trip that involved playing, river-runnin' and creeking.

"stern squirts"? C'mon... this is 2010

Did anyone notice this thread was from 3 years ago yet?