Liquid Logic XP10

shanebenedict · Post by **shanebenedict** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:21 am

Hey Mike

The XP is no Everest as far as performance. It is a stable confidence inspiring design. It is a very easy design to paddle and extremely easy to roll. The idea wasn't to make a creek boat at all. It is a boat to paddle flatwater to class 4 even. It surprisingly surfs well.

If you are used to whitewater kayaks you will feel the width but the speed and stability are a nice feeling.

It tracks more than whitewater boats without the skeg down and with it down it tracks easily. Which might be a nice thing for C-1 when you are trying to just chill out and paddle downstream.

I am not going to tell you its the large steaming pile of dog doo as a C-1 because I haven't ever tried it but I have an idea that it could be a great transition and overnight boat and a decent river runner for those that aren't super comfortable in a whitewater kayak.

Cheers
Shane

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:36 am

Yeah I see the thought process in terms of a transition boat. Would have to paddle one and a remix or jefe to compare, then an everest. mind you I've not been in a kayak since 1985

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:46 am

Shane, thanks for the info, and especially thanks for the qualifying statements like....
"I am not going to tell you its the large steaming pile of dog doo as a C-1 because I haven't ever tried it"
Much appreciated.
Some kayaker-reps aren't quite so up front about things.

keep us in mind when you work on the next creeker...

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:07 pm

Hey Shane, thanks for posting here!

LL boats are getting increasingly looked at as C1s and just wondering... Would your compagny ever consider at all making C1 outfitting available?

Other cies have tried and failed to do good there, but other ones have done quite well (dagger in the past, dog kayaks now apparently)

Let alone the bulkheads (very user-specific cuts and people can still add them on afterwards if they fancy) but simply a MUCH beefier bottom rail with 3-position anchor points for thightstraps and pillow stoppers (so the rail won't move back and forth) and a buttcup.

Please... We canoeists feel so alone in this big world!

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:15 pm

On Saturday I put next to each other:

Remix 79
Jefe grande
Xp10

The xp 10 is truly enormous compared to the other two. Has a really big cockpit and bags of space in it. Shane mentioned that the hatch might need a strap across it for bigger water, and I'd agree with that. The rubber which holds it down at the front looks good and I bet is fine for flat/small water, but I think if the deck had any volume of water pressing on it the hatch *might* pop. The skeg deployment system is very natty, simple and clearly works well, a really nice idea. The rear dec is pretty flat whuich could be an issue on drops but clearly it wasn't built for that kind of running anyway. Interesting thing for a C1 though is the cockpit size. Its long and wide, I mean really long. The stats on the LL site don't do it justice in the flesh, it truly is big.

As Marc says above, what would be nice is the option to order with a proper stringer bonded to the hull in a bombproof kind of way, and some strap anchor point choices like the ones in Kelvins pics of the big dog kaos set up on the other thread. Not really worried about the supply of a saddle, happy to deal with that myself.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:58 pm

Has anyone thought of the XP9? It makes sense if you're going to be using a flatwater-ish boat for whitewater to look to the slightly smaller option...

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:29 pm

marclamenace wrote:LL boats are getting increasingly looked at as C1s and just wondering... Would your compagny ever consider at all making C1 outfitting available

What do you mean making? The LL center rail is to the foam saddle enthusiast what the dagger saddle is to the lazy/transient C1'er...

Whilst we're making requests, How'd you fancy reconditioning the mold for the Gus... There are quite a few fanatical fans of that boat still around.

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:35 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:What do you mean making? The LL center rail is to the foam saddle enthusiast what the dagger saddle is to the lazy/transient C1'er...

Well, not quite. You have to double it somehow or the plastic may rip off at some point...

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Whilst we're making requests, How'd you fancy reconditioning the mold for the Gus... There are quite a few fanatical fans of that boat still around.

He he guess you got speed-passed on your recent deal right?

But that is still another question, right: why do all boat manufacturers discontinuing their models when a newer one comes in? Even though the newer Remix may be a better boat than the old gus, an aluminium mold has a pretty long life and why not offering these oldies on a custom-based.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:58 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
What do you mean making? The LL center rail is to the foam saddle enthusiast what the dagger saddle is to the lazy/transient C1'er...

I may be wrong but didn't gabe tear one of those weany little center rails apart in a matter of weeks?

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:30 pm

Not sure about everyone else but I wouldnt use the LL centre rail as a strap anchor point unless it was heavily reinforced and properly bonded to the hull. No way.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:51 pm

I'll admit I've never seen one of the LL center rails, but I get the impression that they are hollow, square-ish rails that sit against the bottom of the boat (but aren't fused to the bottom of the boat). Every mention of them breaking that I've seen has been with outfitting bolted through/into them, or running through slots cut in them. Maybe if you could loop some webbing around the entire rail, even between the rail and the hull, to attach an anchor point separately, you'd get more strength? That would prevent you from needing to cut into the center rail, which might allow it to retain more of its strength (also, any pull from any direction, even on one strap, would be pulling at the webbing loop and therefore the entire rail-- not just whatever part of the rail you're screwed into).

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:10 pm

It's not bonded to the hull (certainly not in the middle/cockpit anyway) so under tension of straps it'll lift. Lets face it, it wasnt designed to take the kind of force which could be placed on it by a c1er. Put it this way, you can stick a few fingers under it and lift it so not ideal for a strap anchor point. Plus the plastic is soft and fairly thin too, could easily rip a bolt or strap through a slot out of it. Again though, the LL rail is not designed to take any kind of upward pressure.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:15 am

What I was referring to was putting straps anchored around it under the bottom-- so you're pulling up on the whole rail instead of on bolts or slots cut into the rail. That said, from you description, it probably is bad for that usage... Still, a strap around the bottom to anchor should solve the bolts and slots ripping out problem. I can't speak to the stiffness problems that it might still have.

Coldwater · Post by **Coldwater** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:18 am

I agree the XP10 looks like it could be a great C1 for overnighters. And probably pretty enjoyable as a very large river running boat. Regarding the LL kayak rail; I used a rail on a Dagger CFS conversion a few years ago. I drilled through the rail and bolted 1/8" thick by 1/2" wide aluminum stock down the length of the rail on the outside edges. The aluminum extended under the bow and stern walls and was actually bolted to the plastic bow pillar. On the inside edges of the rail I bolted the same size aluminum stock and the thigh straps were bolted through this aluminum. I also bent a piece of aluminum into a "C" shape that was also attached near the thighstraps to all of this framework to keep the rail from spreading with the force of the thigh straps. The rail flexed very little once it was reinforced with the aluminum and was also lighter than my Dagger pedestals. I never had any issues with bolts pulling through or any other weaknesses, as the lightweight aluminum took all of the abuse. I outfitted my Wavesport Super EZ kayak rail in the same manner and it has held up beautifully.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:50 am

marclamenace wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Whilst we're making requests, How'd you fancy reconditioning the mold for the Gus... There are quite a few fanatical fans of that boat still around.
He he guess you got speed-passed on your recent deal right?

But that is still another question, right: why do all boat manufacturers discontinuing their models when a newer one comes in? Even though the newer Remix may be a better boat than the old gus, an aluminium mold has a pretty long life and why not offering these oldies on a custom-based.

I got the Gus, it's a good convertion; in fact it's IMO better than the remix; but thus far my creekboats have had a short service life though, and I don't want to go scouring the second hand market for a good example of a 2003 boat in a years time.

I use a piece of webbing looped under the center rail, which has a double back buckle like a climbing harness on it....

I do use a full length saddle (which is full height at the back and wraps round the central pillar), and full height & width bulkhead at the front all bonded to both the floor of the hull and the ll central rail... I can hang my jefe by the straps and put my whole weight on the boat ... looks like the bolts holding the back of the straps to the hull are going to pull through way before that foam covered rail will fail.