If you were an OC-2 Instructor...

[icyone]

Couple of points -- I agree that "dude in the back" is "traditional"; "traditional" comes from a time when men led, women obeyed, and men were assumed to be strong, women weak, and and women only got to be taken out in canoes on lakes, where the stern-man (pun, pun!) controlled the boat. But that's another era, even tho habits and perceptions sometimes die hard. I don't think women in general are more timid, but in the past they had to overcome limited expectations. I remember years ago, when there were more C-1W's around, I took a group of C-1W's only out for a day, and it was amazing to watch what happened. I suspect the results were the same when paddling schools started offering women-only classes. For a pair starting out together today I'd suggest experimenting with different positions -- and occasionally switching partners as well -- while encouraging each other to progress with fundamentals.

Another thing about OC's is that a lot of them are heavy -- especially the ones folks usually start out in -- so women were/are less likely to get solo experience, and today the more aggressive beginners tend to be pushed toward solo kayaks. (Boo-hiss) Personally, altho I prefer doubles, I found that lots of time in C-1 when a partner wasn't available immeasurably improved my skills and confidence, and with that goes aggressiveness.

Deciding where the taller, longer-armed person should be is very individual to both the pair and the boat characteristics. With close seating, the best compromise is usually taller in the back: you give up something on eddy turns, but the longer reach can partly compensate. (One of the best teams I've watched had a very tall, long-armed woman in the stern, and a short muscular man in the bow. but that's not a common combination. ) Every pair is unique and needs to experiment.

Finally, your Q about rolling (altho far from the subject that started the thread): I've never learned an OC roll, but in my experience, the paddler with the looongest roll should initiate. Preferably this should be the stern, as his/her paddle will be closest to the center of the boat. The bow can either switch or use a "bow roll"; in theory switching & using a low-brace roll provides more power, but in practice a low-brace role executed close to the bow probably is going to lose some effectiveness. I find it is easier to time a bow roll and a really strong snap to give the roll a real kick, and for that case the on-side roller initiates, while the bow roller sets up fast and then hangs on alert for the first indication that it's time to "GO".
The longer the low brace roll the easier to sense the start and add that punch. Independent of which rolls are used, an experienced pair learn to "read" each other, and in really big turbulent water, sometimes you both just sense "the moment" when the water feels right -- just as either of you would do in C-1. And altho I've never done it, I'd expect that if I were stern in a close-cockpit boat with a strong roller in front of me, I'd still use the "bow roll" in the stern rather than switching (and if it were an end-holer -- pray.)

I guess we've taken all of this rather far from the original Q -- sorry.

[MrJack]

Wow, this is so much great information. I am anxious to get a couple of the books y'all referred to.

At this point I have been in the stern, but I think it would be valuable to at least switch it up a bit on some flat water to see how it goes and better understand what the other paddler is doing. I have experience paddling class IV in a kayak. She had no WW experience when we started. I felt the stern was the natural place to start simply b/c I had more experience reading water. Also I am a much larger paddler than she is.

We have been doing pretty well catching eddies, ferrying, etc. on class II. We will continue to try to catch every eddy we can and use the class II river to prepare ourselves for the same moves on more pushy water.

We are enjoying it and looking forward to progressing. Your advice will help greatly. Thanks again for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it!

[yarnellboat]

As books go, I also like "Basic Canoeing", it's very simple and well illustrated.

And for the more ww stuff, "Thrill of the Paddle".

Sounds like you're well on the right track!

Pat.

[cadster]

I've been boating tandem a lot in both big and technical whitewater this year. A few more points to add to the stern versus bow debate:

stern words are important since they can't be seen by the bow;
strength is more important in the stern whereas the boat responds to finesse in the bow;
seeing more boat from the stern gives them the best information as to where the boat is going;
the bow paddler needs to catch stern mistakes from looking too far ahead; and
the bow especially needs to act going over steep drops where the stern view is limited.

I come down on the side of the most experienced paddler being in the stern. The biggest challenge for me being in the stern is reading the water and speaking almost simultaneously.

A useful tip for catching tight eddies from "Thrill of the Paddle" is to match a bow cross draw with stern backsweep. A backsweep entering an eddy isn't what you'd do solo.

[kslund]

nice pics Bruce! is that the Numbers?

The wife and I topped out on classII+ before she gave up completely. I am very impressed with those that stick with it and can run class III and IV.

I also think, as someone mentioned earlier, that it is huge benefit if both paddlers have some solo experience. Mainly because you can already read water so both paddlers are more likely to know what is really a hazard and what isn't.

[cadster]

Top photo is in runout of Number 4 on the CO Arkansas with Bonnie G. We ran it two days in a row and found dryer lines the second day. Our first attempt at 4 was wet. Number 5 has a tight dry line starting with the left plunge. Number 6 was the trickiest to run well in the OC2. The bow gets bounced offline.

Bottom photo is in the middle of Zoom Flume also on the Ark with Jennifer F. It’s was our first trip sharing a boat. We tandemed the Royal Gorge the next day. Jennifer has been a dedicated slalom canoeist. She was my most skilled partner so far, but Bonnie is a lot of fun to share a boat with.

[LEW]

This has gotten away from the original questions posted by a much welcomed, new canoe team. I missed an important query directed to me, as to why "the dude" is always in the back!
In my opnion, The male/female issue is completelty IRRELEVANT! What matters is that a pair, whether mixed or BOTH male/female can work BEST. And size does matter! It is not easy to trim a WW boat with a much heavier bow paddler. And a bow heavy boat is far more difficult to handle than a stern heavy boat. Besides, if the stern paddler cannot get a clear view of the river, then confusion will lead to trouble for both.
I recently taught a class with a mixed pair, who were similar in size and ability. With him in bow and her in stern, they progressed exceptionly well. Why? Because they were both out to enjoy themselves, and THEIR combination worked! I have taught many classes with a mix of partners, some pairings worked very well, while others did not.
WHO CARES ABOUT THE SEX OF THE BOW/STERN PADDLER!
It just, DOES NOT MATTER!!!
If you are having fun and are comfortable with your progess, then
DON'T change a thing! Get out there as much as possible and you will be in for years of enjoyment!
AS LONG AS YOU FOLLOW "THE RULES"!

[John Coraor]

Well said, Lew!

My wife and I are both 5'8" and typically weigh within 5 lbs. of each other, so when we started paddling C-2 the position choices were something of a toss-up. My wife wound up in the stern, which turned out to be a good choice for us. Although initially less experienced in that position, she quickly picked up the necessary skills. In addition, being in the stern reduced her fear level as she found that having more boat and a partner in front of her to be reassuring.

John

[cadster]

Jim and Dale had a good run on the Numbers this week, but got flipped on an eddyline in the Royal Gorge.

[Al Donaldson]

Good day!

The only "stern paddler" cross stroke that I've found useful (and very useful at that!) in tandem paddling is the cross draw (usually sculling cross draw.) When the entire boat needs to be moved (or held) to the stern paddlers off side, especially in shallow or rocky waters, the cross draw, working with the bow paddler's draw, seems to be a more powerful and safer stroke than the pry. An upstream pry that encounters a rock in quick water can generate an upsetting activity, while a cross draw or sculling cross draw doesn't have quite the same chance of levering the boat into oblivion.

Yes, the stern paddler has to practice getting the paddle around without clubbing the bow paddler, but the added precision, power and safety offset the inconvenience of that bit of practice time (to me at least.)

Other folks: any thoughts?

Regards,

al

[mahyongg]

You've said it all guys! Just wanted to add one thing..

If in doubt, paddle forward.

;D

[icyone]

Although I thought we had pretty well finished this thread off, I would like to add this link. Scroll to the bottom for one of the all-time great C-2M teams in action -- dude in the bow

They were an inspiration to me.

http://chucklyda.com/Chuck-Lyda_Memorial-Album.htm

(This was during the transition from end-holers to close cockpits.)

[cadster]

Paddler position because of size would matter less in a C-2 than an OC-2.

Here's an article by Anna Levesque that addresses gender differences with respect to whitewater paddling:

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Un ... ing/457741