any one convert a villian, detox, or pure yet?

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:32 pm

haven't seen the pure in person, but it looks nice. haven't seen the other two on the water yet, but did get to check them out at a shop the other day and both seem like they have potential. anyone actually paddled any of these three yet?

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:50 am

those are ummmm ... kayaks .... right?

just checking...

it's about time we had a new (proper) C1

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:29 am

are you, trolling me?

'cause there ain't nobody else here, smerda, so you must be trollin me!

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:52 am

oh no sir... I'm just tryin' to figger out if yer a kayaker?

o.k. let's be serious here... what was the last plastic C1 good for running rivers and some steeper runs?

Robson Finkenmeister

and before that?

Dagger Atom?

personally I prefer an OC1 for river running and such... for park and play I paddle a conversion... but why hasn't someone done a commercially viable legit decked canoe good for river running and creeking? honestly... I don't really know what the market is for a new decked canoe... I've poked and prodded here but most people seem content to convert... personally I don't see any advantage to converting a boat that was designed to be sat in rather than kneeled in compared to one that was purposely designed.

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:58 am

Craig Smerda wrote:personally I don't see any advantage to converting a boat that was designed to be sat in rather than kneeled in compared to one that was purposely designed.

Biggest advantage... you can buy one (in plastic at least). But theoretically, I agree.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:14 am

RodeoClown wrote:Biggest advantage... you can buy one (in plastic at least). But theoretically, I agree.

Good point... but how many people that convert actually purchase a brand new hull or a complete kayak to start with?

Sure... used kayaks are readily available for reasonable prices but as we both agree... they weren't designed to be knelt in. Also... from a practical standpoint doesn't that make conversions close to what you might want a C1 to be like... but not exactly?

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:48 am

If I know it's a good design, I purchase brand new. And I know others do too.
If it's an experiment to see if a particular design will work, then I'll look for a used hull, but otherwise I would rather start fresh and get some days out of it.
We're content to convert because the kayaks are better designs, they work great as c1s, and there are many to chose from. Aside from race boats, The "true" c1s for the last 20 years have been pure crap.
Really, what would make a creek Kayak better if it was designed as as a Canoe? I can't think of a dang thing.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:25 am

Larry Horne wrote:Really, what would make a creek Kayak better if it was designed as as a Canoe? I can't think of a dang thing.

Oh... I can (and have) thought of a number of things...

It's the whole "commercial viability" thing that make's it a tough sell for a manufacturer though (what happened to Drakkar???)... from my perspective it would also have to be a good river running boat (that's what most people do in reality) that you could surf on a nice wave with as well and have a bit of fun.

Oh well... it's fun to ponder...

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:45 am

thing is, with kayaks we can choose from; full on creekers, to river runners to river/play, to play, etc.. and all of those in two or three different sizes!
A do-it-all design would be tough to keep from being just another atom. and you know how i love those!

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:19 am

Larry Horne wrote:thing is, with kayaks we can choose from; full on creekers, to river runners to river/play, to play, etc.. and all of those in two or three different sizes!
A do-it-all design would be tough to keep from being just another atom. and you know how i love those!

Yeah... but those are frickin' kayaks dude!!!

I can name about 10 things I don't like about the Atom in about 9 seconds and the Fink just doesn't cut it for me. Have you already lost faith in me?

Do I need to *bump* this old thread up again?
http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... er&start=0

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:16 am

bruce started that thread. what's he paddling now? that's right.. a kayak

i do have faith in you smerda. just make it have a large cockpit because i don't feel comfortable wearing those short little skirts.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:13 am

I've paddled the villain; the best way I can describe it is "Imagine you have a Jefe, now imagine it just became twice as tippy, and then imagine that it's much harder to control it turning if it goes off line... and there you have the villain".

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:58 am

so the guys who paddle c1s on creeks are happy with conversions and the guy who paddles a canoe thinks we need 'real' c1's. sounds about right.

josh: couldn't make the villain sound much worse if you were trying.

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:34 am

So I agree with what Larry said. I have purchased C-1's new: Atom and Fink; and neither were much fun and I certainly never felt safe in either on easy creeks. The Cascade was a safe stable boat but an under performer. I do conversions on the cheap because I never know if any kayak hull is going to cut it for me until I paddle it. Example, I bought a Fink based on the hype posted by others here and I'm sure they were honest, but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I think it is important to demo a boat maybe several times before you buy one and I've never once seen a demo C-1. I do used conversions on the cheap so that I don't have a grand or more invested in a boat I can't sell if It doesn't work out. I want a C-1 that paddles like an Ocoee and so far the WS Z is as close as I've come. If the Fink or Atom or Cascade were such a great boats why don't you see three or four every weekend?

OC1er · Post by **OC1er** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:40 am

Suprised about the villian, I've only seen a couple but thought they were pretty good looking...

I like the versatility allowed by choosing an existing K boat then converting, there are a ton of designs out there and fans of about all of them. I think it'd be cool if manufacturers would make empty or partially outfitted (i.e., "I want the hull stiffener but not the seat" or whatever you want and don't want) shells at a lower price an option for us. But I like the fact that as a Cboater, you also have to be a boat builder of sorts. Another bit of ammo to use in the great debate, I love hearing K boaters brag about their "outfitting" job...C'mon brah, that's just a foot block!