Adirondack Steep Creeking

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:29 pm

I've completely scoured class III/IV+ rock gardens all summer

And that's the video that I want to see! Put up quality vid of you boofing & weaving merrily along eddy to eddy through some long, technical class IV boulder gardens! That's impressive paddling.

We can't see how you actually paddle your canoe in the vids of you riding a tub down a big chute in duck-and-cover mode.

We've seen you smash down big stuff, but we haven't seen you control these fine moves to get where you need to be.

Pat.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:10 pm

u aren't necessarily wasting your breath, you're just backing up the obvious you know. Like come on man, don't you think i know a little bit of what I am doing, and how to get better at it you know... your speaking to me like I just started hucking drops one day out of no where.

its also like... whats ur experience w/ steep, multi move drops? With the features that they create? have you ever seriously hair boated? 95% of the game at this point is purely mental, and dealing with you're emotions. And I assure you, when you're paddling out to a lot of these drops, heart trying to pound its way out of your chest, knowing that your life is literally in the balance between you're execution and luck/unluck. BUT WAIT...NONE OF THIS MATTERS, FORGET IT ALL....JUST PADDLE. YOU CAN DO THIS!!! BELIEVE IT!!!! HERE....WE......GOOOOOO. Once you're past this point, it's all reaction. Paddle reaction/hip reaction/use of elbows, ect. You can't get that kind of 'practice' on the easy stuff...

Continious class III, and most stuff you see on those runs... while they can be beneficial, in terms of developing confidence in hitting holes with certain boat angles, and seeing the EXACT size of the hole, and the EXACT way the boat reacted... But other than that... class III is completely trivial. I just can't explain it man... there's only one way to get better at running 'the goods' and thats the 'run the goods'.

Is it possible to get hurt? absolutely. But it's possible for EVERYONE. everyones number gets called at some point. It just happens. You CANNOT play a competitive contact sport at a HIGH level without getting injured(think NFL/NHL). It just isn't possible.

While I will be looking to 'improve' certain aspects on some 'easier water'....it won't help nearly as much as just running the brown.

And learning to paddling under complete pressure. Class III will not do that to you... even if you pick out the hairyest moves u can find. If you haven't felt what its like to enter a drop, knowing that you have to be spot on your game, and control every inch of where that boat is going, or else something seriously bad might happen...and do that move after move, then its hard for you relate. I don't mean any disrespect at all. Believe me man. Nor, am I saying what I do is any better than what you or anyone else does... I'm just saying that if you haven't experienced these things, there's not a whole lot you're going to add you know in terms of 'giving advice'.

If you come out with an idea out of the box, that might be effective, then awesome... if could really help. And I would greatly appreciate it. Please don't take this negatively. I come in peace. I just felt like I needed to say something, as I'm hearing it all the time. You have to be there or paddle with me to know exactly what's goin on.

"run it today, to stomp it tomorrow'. vs . 'Walk it today, to run it tomorrow'

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Pat - I have some good stuff in the works. I'm just not controling the editing so I can't really get it out. But I'll get you some of that footage.

I look like any other good paddler in III/IV boulder gardens... can comfortably do whatever I feel like. pat, that's a lot of the reason why I progressed so quickly. I paddled in all sorts of conditions, from low to flood, and have always made 110% effort in grabbing every eddy I can, and working on the moves that other would pass up. And that's great and all for III/IV practice, but Class V is another world, with totally different features. I have already become a class III/IV Jedi, and as the years go on, I will slowly move to become a Jedi master... But I have hit a wall in the progression realm right now. and my biggest concern is BRINGIN DOWN THE HOUSE!!!! Class V is where it's at.

I get what your sayin that... and I agree, need to add some variety in these videos. My favorite aspect of canoeing is linking moves together in boulder gardens and stuff. And the past 2 weeks have just been about running the gnar. And if there is a class III/IV boulder garden, no one things to stop and do anything there, because its trivial boogie water....meanwhile, there i am, the only canoe there, hitting every eddy i can down simple class III, having a good time and holding the group up... lol.

I know some of the videos aren't showing a whole lot of skill... My goal isn't to 'show how good i am'(because honestly theres plenty just as good, and better)...but 'show what i am doing' and where I am 'trying to go'.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:27 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote:I assure you, when you're paddling out to a lot of these drops, heart trying to pound its way out of your chest, knowing that your life is literally in the balance between you're execution and luck/unluck. BUT WAIT...NONE OF THIS MATTERS, FORGET IT ALL....JUST PADDLE. YOU CAN DO THIS!!! BELIEVE IT!!!! HERE....WE......GOOOOOO. Once you're past this point, it's all reaction. Paddle reaction/hip reaction/use of elbows, ect. You can't get that kind of 'practice' on the easy stuff...

My experience has been that I go through all those feelings whilst inspecting, or paddling down to a rapid but once I've decided to run it, all I'm thinking of is what strokes I'm going to plant, when and where. If I can't focus on that, then I won't run the rapid...

Equally, your line shouldn't be reaction, but action... you should be deciding how you run the rapid, and executing that plan, you should't be letting the rapid decide where you go. If you're fighting the river it's a guaranteed loss.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:32 pm

What do you do when you can't successfully execute the plan? Then what?

And what I'm realizing with Open boating...if you don't execute the 'plan' PERFECTLY...chances are you are knocked off course, or Wet... and once your boat is swamped, then the river will do what it wants to you.

The difference between open boating vs kayaking isn't even close. OBing the sht is so much harder, that class V boaters literally look at you like ur nuts. and frankly if you class V OB...u r either nuts, or fear no death. or both.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:37 pm

"If I cant focus on that, then I won't run the rapid" I like that.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:52 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote:What do you do when you can't successfully execute the plan? Then what?

Of the last two times of note: I ran a staircase of rapey holes on my head trying to roll before finally got sucked out of my boat; the other time I rolled up into a tree.

The point is if the majority of your paddling involves missing your lines and reacting, "you're doing it wrong". Of all the runs I've done in kayak, then OC1, and finally in C1 I can recall the majority of times when I've ended up in a reactionary stance, because it's a rare happening, usually I'm skilled enough to master what I'm trying to do (now playboating is a different matter, my skill is rarely up to what I'm attempting).

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:52 pm

You're right..I don't know how you paddle. All I know is by the vids you post saying how awesome you are, but I see the bottom of your boat at dam near every drop, rapid, hole, wave, eddy, riffle in your videos. What that tells everyone on the forum is that you aren't in control of your boat. I'm suggesting easier water, so maybe you can run your awesome butt down the river right side up for once so you don't look like a friggin' moron. Maybe there's a reason the kayakers look at you like WTF???

I know this sounds crappy, but from what we all see on the videos, your roll is your best stroke. How many times do you roll while you're tearing it up on the UY since it's child's play? If the answer isn't one or less 4 out of 5 runs down the river, then you aren't running it like an open boater - you're running it like a kayaker in an open boat.

If you can run the UY clean, no rolls, not running the bilges, and running all the classic lines (not sneak routes, etc.) then I will bow down before you in awe. Otherwise, ......

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:50 pm

I run the UY clean running all the hard lines. And I never said you don't know how to paddle, but since you are coming at me like that..I just think this is out of your league, and you don't know what you're talking about.

everyone gets their arse kicked when they step up. and most will go back down to where they came from because they dont like it. so what if i flip alot... I won't by next year.

and I get nothing but respect from yakers for even ATTEMPTING it.

...my best stroke is prob my roll... bummer that my best stroke is the one that will probably save my life over and over again when I need it....and 'not running bilges' ....come on, r u serious with that?... you dont have anything to say to me man. just sit back and enjoy the carnage.

btw.... i hear they got some sick whitewater in florida. no wonder why you want me hit the easy water...thats all u have.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:59 pm

even if they had serious whitewater in Florida, i highly doubt you paddle it. its easy to tell when someone just isn't equipt with the stones.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mzakutan/Ra ... 1962312706

I bet class III practice could really help me there...

or maybe just practice? second run I run that whole thing dry.

that's a pic of Tubs on the Racquette by the way. Beautiful river.

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:08 pm

Proverbs 17:28

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:14 pm

I'ts out of YOUR league dude. Show us some clean runs...PLEASE. I'd love to believe you're even half as good as you believe you are.

And yes...just moved to Tampa in June so there is no whitewater close by. Which is why I'm looking at C1s to play in the wakes of jet skis and power boats and the surf, but yeah..no hucking it off anything unless I drive about 10 hours (which I will, just not right now). I've swam in class IV, no biggie..kinda fun really, but anyway.

I'd rather run my lines with finesse and skill in a boat that requires it. Maybe you can touch base with kabukiblaze (sp?) and see if he still has my old cut and pinched Ocoee and if he will let you borrow that for a few minutes to swim from.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:31 pm

I only need 1 clean run as far as I am concerned. and thats on Nov 10th.

The rest will come... last may my friend... last may. Very short time to be boating. I'm only human.

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:08 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote: everyone gets their arse kicked when they step up. and most will go back down to where they came from because they dont like it.

No. No they don't. Most people build up the skill and experience* on water they're comfortable with so that when they do step up, they might be a bit nervous, but they're also confident and comfortable with what they're doing. If you want to hang out with guys who roll that way, go for it, but it's far from the best way of doing things. You can't really learn to paddle Class V by paddling Class V. I know that sounds ridiculous, but if you're scared and even a little out of control, you're not learning, and if you're not scared, you have some re-evaluating to do.

Now, I'll admit there have been times when I've felt out of control on the river, like I shouldn't have been there. And when that happened, I
stepped back, re-evaluated, built up my skills and experience, and then stepped up again comfortably and confidently.

*you asked in another thread what happens when Plan A fails. This is where experience comes in. The ability to make a split second switch to executing a Plan B that might not have existed a split second before. It's more than just a reaction, but a reaction turned into action. It's not something that can be taught like a forward stroke, but only figured out thorough time in the the boat.

What's on Nov 10th?

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:22 pm

it was more of a rhetorical question when I asked what happens when plan A fails... I know that feeling all too well, and I have the reactionary/action part down.

Just need to not make ANY mistakes. that's where the game is headed. Its gonna take some time.

The more I run, the more comfortable I get...