canoe creeking 2011

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:14 am

I'm contemplating on moving off class 2+,3 and really trying to get a bullet proof roll this winter. All this leading to my ultimate goal of boating much harder. I do most everything with a bit of intensity so I hope my goals don't put anyone off.

I like the idea of technical small tight creeks. Ultimately I want to run crystal on the bottom moose. Lofty I agree. Even though the bottom moose isn't a creek the left line at crystal is a classic steep creek line.

what would you suggest? I can afford about $1000 now and I could work at growing the budget if I really thought the boat would be worth the $$$ for performance. I'd rather invest in the right quality equipement even if I have to delay to gather funds for a few months. I'm guessing the L'edge is a good expensive option.

so what should I be looking for....I assume plastic like the butt boaters. How long for steep creeks is best? the length I really need help on, it might narrow me down immediately. I'm 165 lbs 5' 11"

thanks in advance,

Creeker

Jim Michaud · Post by **Jim Michaud** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:56 am

Tight creeks will demolish Royalex boats very quickly so unless you can afford a new canoe every year I would suggest a nice thick plastic boat like the L'Edge.

I rate creeks by how much it cost me to run it. Let's say that a Royalex canoe cost $1,500. If the creek is so steep and tight that I could not expect a canoe to survive more than 15 runs then it would be a $100 river (in real money).

Jim

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:22 am

jim, assuming this post was 2009 and the l'edge was not an option are there other durable options?

Jim Michaud · Post by **Jim Michaud** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:34 am

jim, assuming this post was 2009 and the l'edge was not an option are there other durable options?

Nothing that I know of except the Cascade C-1. I use to go through a Mad River Outrage every year. I don't think that there's any Royalex boat that will stand up to constant rock bashing.

Jim

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:35 am

Your options as far as plastic boats OC1 that are suitable for creeking and that are available on the used boat market in your price range you are looking at the Prelude, Spanish Fly, Taureau, Quake and Skeeter.

TGG!

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:27 pm

What kind of boat are you paddling now (re: stability profile, edginess, speed needed)? Short list would be the Spanish Fly or Prelude. Mohawk is working on a plastic Maxim, but not sure the price range or when exactly it will be out - should work withing your size range well though.

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:09 pm

thx so far.

i have the reliable mad river ME and I love it. Frankly I just paddle so I'm not into the white water world like you guys. I've never even sat in anyone else's canoe. Agreed, I have had blinders on and now I'm opening my eyes for the first time.

jscott you mentioned those models. Assuming my dedication is where my mouth and hopes are.....what order would you say these suggestions would rank on class 4-5 technical creek. speed/boof/nimbleness. I'm sure all are trading off to different degrees...sorry for the loaded question. Noobies are pro's at it.

The end game here is that I will have the $$ for a L'edge. I'm trying to not immediately buy into the hype. I'm struggling to get info on the used market performance to evaluate the Cost Vs Performance angle of the newest thoughts in design. Now I'm wondering what's up with the Maxim.

as a side note originally I posted I was looking at moving off class 2+ and 3. I don't dislike 2-3 at all (i'm not a 2-3 snob pro or con)

phreon · Post by **phreon** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:25 pm

Quick question:

How adept at and willing are you to patch a Royalex boat? Depending on how much creeking you do, a viable solution might be to run the season and patch 'er up in the winter.

The right epoxy + dynel or xynole creates a pretty damned tough, flexible patch/skid plate.

Just a though from someone more or less in your shoes (not quite ready for full on creekin' though).

Doug

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:27 pm

I'm guessing those models might start popping up for sale a l'edges make it into more hands....which is great for the starters. As for the l'edge can you even get one? i was reading that you can't even get one in the south something about they won't ship anymore this year? Are other areas like the northeast able to get or demo the l'edge at this point on class 1-2. I'm thinking I don't have a handle on the supply and demand involved. Are those pre ordered way out even.

it's all ending with learning about the boats and how hard it is to obtain something on the New or Used Market. Thanks again in advance.....did I just hijack my own thread?

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:32 pm

If you're mainly interested in creek boating you will want a plastic canoe. If you want to get a used boat for creeking I would recommend getting a prelude. After that I would recommend a used spanish fly, quake or skeeter.

ian123 · Post by **ian123** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:45 pm

The L'edge is still available in Ontario.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:51 pm

Creeker wrote:I'm guessing those models might start popping up for sale a l'edges make it into more hands....which is great for the starters. As for the l'edge can you even get one? i was reading that you can't even get one in the south something about they won't ship anymore this year? Are other areas like the northeast able to get or demo the l'edge at this point on class 1-2. I'm thinking I don't have a handle on the supply and demand involved. Are those pre ordered way out even.

it's all ending with learning about the boats and how hard it is to obtain something on the New or Used Market. Thanks again in advance.....did I just hijack my own thread?

There's probably going to be some good used boats coming available. As mentioned by others if you are going to be running rocks that are lightly covered with water... go plastic. Funny thing on price/value is that I've heard it going both directions... some people are saying that the prices of used plastic boats will go down with the potential flood of them coming into the market so people can buy a new boat... and I've also heard that based on the price of a new boat that the used boats might actually increase a bit in value. Hard to say... your mileage may vary... no guarantee expressed or implied.

I have no idea where this "Esquif won't ship boats" stuff is coming from... they are in the business of selling canoes.

If anyone wants a new L'edge right now I know that Kaz (Millbrook canoes in NH) has an extra open model he just picked up and Bear Paw Outdoors here in Wisconsin has one decked one... not sure of any other retailers stock or ordering status at this point though... I'm not involved in that at all. If you want contact info for either of them send me a private message via Cboats.

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:55 pm

Just trying to figure out how big a transition in stability you are facing. Both are great, but they are different boats. S'fly (pre L'edge) is arguably the best creeking OC and has much more initial stability than a Prelude.

Prelude would carry a little more speed and accelerate more quickly and has the more traditional OC1 appeal, but coming from an ME would be more of a learning curve (great secondary, but not so great primary stability) If you were coming from an Ocoee, Viper, Zoom, Maxim, etc. it wouldn't be quite as big of a transition.

I'm a class II/III boater as well. If I was wanting to run a tight, narrow, creeky class IV tomorrow, the S'Fly would be the boat I would pick.

edited to add:
I believe the prelude would rank higher in all of the 3 areas you mentioned (boofing probably closer), as well as dryness. In my short time in each boat, the S'Fly is wetter, but would seem to "take care of you" better.

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:04 pm

I can't encourage people enough to go plastic. Without the fear of breaking your boat, new moves open up that you would never have considered, even on you local Class II run. And just think of the resale value! Shell out $2k for a L'edge now, use it all year long and sell it used next year for $1,500 or whatever (or never sell it). You can't exactly buy a new Detonator, run it down rocks all year, and expect to get 3/4 of its initial value back in a year.

I'm hoping that the L'edge will help the open boat community enjoy rocky streams, whether steep or not, without the fear of real boat damage, which should in turn increase the popularity of plastic canoes across the board thereby making them more sought after (than they are already!). Sure weight is a concern, but I'm much happier bouncing down rocks then sitting at home with a broken royalex boat.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:52 pm

Me and Doopey and a bunch of Canadians use the Teaureau it is a hellva a creeker as fast as the Super or Spanish fly, not as fast as a Prelude or Skeeter but dryer than any of the above four. Faster and Dryer than a Quake not as stable and harder to roll. Like everyone else said Roylex or Roylite ain't goin to cut it on real steep creeks, ask Swimmin Mexican.