Atom and the Fink

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:39 pm

Both are too long, both have circular cockpits, both have a gentle rocker profile; Those are the three things that make them unsuitable as a true creekboat.

I'd hapily buy a C1 specific creekboat, Ideally a soft edged boat in the 8.5-9.5 ft range, with a long waterline length, and extreme nose and tail rocker, and a slightly bow-oriented, smooth resurfacing volume distribution. EDIT: Ideally I wouldn't want it to be excessively wide either, but not so narrow as to be super tippy and the cockpit rim would need to be high enough at the back to accomodate a 5 or 6 inch saddle with a backrest of the same height (so maybe 9-11 inches high, as it's fine to stretch my deck a bit just not masses).

I'd prefer an oval cockpit that allows my knees and feet to be unconstrained by the plastic deck of the boat, and would find the standard keyhole/bigdeck cockpit preferable to the silly C1 shape.

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:10 pm

I very much agree with the rocker profile... i want something with extreme rocker in the bow and stern, with light rocker breaks and considerably less rocker in the center of the boat. There's a big debate on the value of rocker breaks, but I really think it helps create an all around more functional boat that is more responsive and less piggish.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:13 am

atom; That's what got me out of oc and into c1. it was a c1 that i could just buy, and hop in and paddle it. I had tried a cascade before that but it was a pig compared to my viper oc so i wasn't interested.
The atom looked fun, fast, playable. so i bought one when they first came out. Turns out it did none of that play well, and was even worse in difficult water. So now i will forever I hate do-it -all boats. The atom was still fun enough to hook me though.

The fink is just a mistery to me, I do not get it. And goofy looking! I only paddled one briefly, and It wasn't very impressive. All i know is bruce struggled with that POS for years. The h3 i gave him though, he seemed to feel right at home with that one, oops sooory, no conversions!
Hate the c-boat cockpit size too. extra large keyhole is where it's at!

edit: bruce can probably speak for himself, he's owned about every c1 model made!

Rand C1 · Post by **Rand C1** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:34 pm

I have paddled a Cascade for a few years and I am quite fond of it. It sure makes running Ohiopyle Falls a cinch.
I just got a Fink this Summer. I have only run LY in it and as was said I am still leaning to appreciate its quallities. I agree that the cockpit is to small, and the front deck makes you have to tuck your arm tight to finish your roll. I don't find cross bow any harder than my Cascade, and there is alot less boat to get out of my way. I am really looking forward to paddling the Fink this Fall and Winter on a variety of streams.
Rand

Rand C1 · Post by **Rand C1** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:11 pm

A keyhole cockpit doesn't make alot sense on a perpose built plastic C1. You don't need the room up front you need it behind for your feet and ankles to come out. Its not a kayak. Cacade cockpit shape and size is about right.
Rand

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:50 pm

Rand C1 wrote:A keyhole cockpit doesn't make alot sense on a perpose built plastic C1. You don't need the room up front you need it behind for your feet and ankles to come out. Its not a kayak. Cacade cockpit shape and size is about right.
Rand

Depends on where you're trying to get out and how big your legs are (at 20" from knee to ankle, and 27" from knee to toe in my normal kneeling position, mine are probably above average, but not HUGE! And they're still bigger than the 19" apature provided by the C1 cockpit).

I have to get my knees out of the bulkhead to get my feet out... in a slalom boat or other boat with a c1 cockpit my knees are under the front cockpit rim and my ankles are under the rear, when I move back to climb out (or worse yet swim) I'm up to my calves in the boat.
Compare with a 35" long keyhole where my knees are under the edge of the rim when in the bulkhead but not under anything when I bring them together, and only the ends of my feet are under the back of the rim when i slide back to climb out... far better.

Personally I'd like to see a new c1 deck shape which is more of an oval, meaning I don't need to bring my knees together when getting out (makes it a pain to balance whilst trying to get out onto a wall above me or something), or shove my feet deep into the boat to get free.

Edit: The cockpit size measurements were just this second taken from my boats, your mileage may differ. Equally, my legs are unlikely to also be your legs... in the unlikely event that you do have my legs, I'd love them sent back, preferably on ice.

Rand C1 · Post by **Rand C1** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:40 pm

The Cascade cockpit is oval and has 24" front to back i.d. Your knees are not under the cockpit rim and you use thigh straps. I like it better. The Fink cockpit is just too small.
Cockpit shape and size is an area of C1 design that needs more thought put in to it. Standardization would be nice too. My boats eack require there own skirt.
Rand

insolence · Post by **insolence** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:07 pm

Sir Adam wrote: What we "need" is a more forgiving boat.

what we also need is a boat like the fink but for lighter persons!!!
I would love it, but for me and many other folks it's a bit too much volume

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:22 pm

Rand C1 wrote:The Cascade cockpit is oval and has 24" front to back i.d. Your knees are not under the cockpit rim and you use thigh straps. I like it better. The Fink cockpit is just too small.
Cockpit shape and size is an area of C1 design that needs more thought put in to it. Standardization would be nice too. My boats eack require there own skirt.
Rand

I've just looked it up, it does look better than the normal c1 shape, still not keen about the saddle being the dead back of the cockpit...

I guess what I want is a slightly longer cascade type cockpit, as the one thing I appreciate about creeking in an oc1 is that it's very little hassle to just stand up and get out, and as much as possible I've tried to make my c1's the same...

In fact whilst I'm making requests, I don't really want the boat be the same weight as productio ka:evil:aks, my gus is at least 2/3rds the weight it was before con:evil:ion and I've always felt smug about it.

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:24 pm

i don't have much experience with either boat, but have paddled both. i owned an atom for a bit. it was a very difficult boat for me to paddle as a beginner, but i think i would enjoy it more now. i think it would be a very fun big water boat. i like the cockpit shape, but always thought it was flimsy and, as mentioned, not the safest. i don't know if i'd want to creek in one, but i know several people who do.

my fink time was limited to the pool, i believe. i may have taken it out on class II, marc may remember better than i do. pretty much hate the boat for the same reasons others have mentioned. huge bow make rolling and cross stroked difficult, bad outfitting, widest point is halfway up the side of the boat, bad stern.

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:33 pm

Perhaps a reverse heyhole? Wider for the knees up front, narrower and longer in the bacK (kinda like the shape your legs are actually in while kneeling in an OC-1 or C1

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:57 pm

what we don't need is a factory plastic c1 because there are so many great kayaks to convert there is no reason for one!

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:09 am

Pierre LaPaddelle · Post by **Pierre LaPaddelle** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:33 am

Good point, Oops-in-the-pink-helmet. -- 'Why a plastic C-1 when there's so many good K hulls to convert?'

(A case in point is my new Remix conversion. What a wonderful boat! -- I love it!)

BUT -- the big issue currently being discussed in this-here forum is how to establish our single-stickedness as a viable alternative in a culture overpopulated with butt-warming, and butt-blind, Philistines.

I would love to open a boating manufacturer's brochure or web-page, and see a model which was clearly identified as a 'C-1', rather than as a kayak. Or at least an existing K hull clearly remodelled and labelled 'C-1 Conversion'.

Then folks would begin to ask questions, and find out that alternatives to kayaks -- and kayaking -- are a reality.

It's not just about a different boat, it's about promoting a different activity, and (dare I suggest it?) a different identity.

Rick

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:43 am

gosh rick, you got a chip on your shoulder or somethin?