Einar wrote:....
The Viper 11 is kinda like a hot car, a Shelby Mustang Cobra, pretty unforgiving of error and demanding of technique but once you get it you love it.
The new era of boat hulls originally starting with Dagger and now Esquif have more bouyancy forward (fatter bows) and are more forgiving of burying the nose. Also some of the older designs were more forgiving with their rocker riding up the waves, like the Occoee but a Viper 11 won't let you get away with that....
guess this is more the matter of different strokes for different folks
The Viper 11 was/is one of my fav's... to me considering all things, it's really stable, reasonably quick, and very dry. A great intermediate to advanced intermediate boat, that most beginning boaters should do rather well in. Without taking a poll - I believe most people adequately familiar with both, would say the Viper 11 and Ocoee are way more similar than dissimilar. Of course boat setup will definitely affect performance.
And definitely John 'Kaz' Kazimierczyk (who frequents here) started the bow down mode of thought, anything subsequent from any other company has been in response. I'm pretty sure it was not started by Dagger, and really don't know of anything Esquif has besides the Spark, which is a Mill Brook (Kaz) design.
The designer of the Viper (who incidentally also did the Ocoee) maintained an outfitting company (Team Edge and Ocoee Canoe Company) and always set these boats up hips 3-4 inches back of center. So that when you normally leaned forward to paddle, the boat would then be neutral. personally I think they paddle better that way myself. I really think a boat has to be (specially) designed 'cab-forward', else they will tend to be wetter. Which appears to be a really big selling point for most.
If you want the boat to track better just do the back if you want the whole boat to use the edges better narrow both If you want it to go real crazy widen the back and narrow the front I like to narrow both that way the boat uses the whole chines makes for an edger faster boat
It seems some are saying that a boat outfitted so that the paddlers hip bones are 3-4" aft of center is set up a little bow light.
Maybe you guys are built differently from me, but that certainly is not the case for me. In the kneeling position, the weight of your thighs moves your center of gravity forward of your hips and sitting upright the center of body mass winds up roughly at the position of the paddlers navel, or maybe just behind it, and that is several inches forward of your hip joint position.
Don't believe it? Take your Viper and balance it at its midpoint on a 2 x 6" placed crosswise at the center. Carefully get in the boat on a loose pedestal and move it until the boat balances perfectly sitting upright. I'll bet you find that your navel is right about at the midpoint, your knees will be well in front of the midpoint, the back upright portion of the pedestal (if it has one) will be about 7 inches behind the midpoint, and your hip joint will be 3-4 inches back from the center.
In a short boat like the Viper 11 with the pedestal in this position, if you lean forward a little bit, the bow will tip down, and if you lean back a little the bow will tip up.
It might vary from person to person depending on thigh length and weight, but I have to believe that any boat set up so that the paddlers hip joint is at center while kneeling will be decidedly bow heavy.
philcanoe wrote:And definitely John 'Kaz' Kazimierczyk (who frequents here) started the bow down mode of thought, anything subsequent from any other company has been in response. I'm pretty sure it was not started by Dagger, and really don't know of anything Esquif has besides the Spark, which is a Mill Brook (Kaz) design.
The designer of the Viper (who incidentally also did the Ocoee) maintained an outfitting company (Team Edge and Ocoee Canoe Company) and always set these boats up hips 3-4 inches back of center. So that when you normally leaned forward to paddle, the boat would then be neutral. personally I think they paddle better that way myself. I really think a boat has to be (specially) designed 'cab-forward', else they will tend to be wetter. Which appears to be a really big selling point for most.
(not to be argumentative)
Phil is right... Kaz's "cab forward" designs are more volumetric in the bow and they narrow and shallow up in the stern.
Symetrical boats like the Viper(s) imo seem to paddle the best from the neutral position. I typically take a long level out to the flatwater and set the trim before gluing my outfitting down.
After reading all my post I thinkI need to clearifysome things.
First When I say center I am speaking having the front edge of my pelvic bones even with center. NOT MY HIP sockets
The best way to achive this is to use a yard stick laid across center and slide up till you move the stick.
Second: adjusting the twart lengths is something personal. There are three openboaters in our shop and we each have a little bet different setup. It is what makes you happy. after all this is just a hobby.
Shouldn't the build of a boater, be a wee part in this discussion... considering a big beer bellied paddler, as opposed to a mere wisp of a fellow.
At 5'10.75" and 173-177 lbs my effect may be different than someone 5'10 and 198 lbs or 5'6" and 177lbs. Where we carry our weight, whether more out front or equally distributed could affect placement, just as individual paddling style-taste does. I've always put a new boat on water, before gluing anything in... even using a neighbors large mud puddle after a good rain. And when possible usually have someone take a couple pics, or tell me where the water line hits bows&stern.
Thanks to everyone for your posts! The info was very helpful. I'm planning to get out this weekend to check my trim again and try out some of the suggestions.
for different folks
personally I think they paddle better that way myself. I really think a boat has to be (specially) designed 'cab-forward', else they will tend to be wetter. Which appears to be a really big selling point for most.
