Canoe shape limitations due to materials.....

[TheKrikkitWars]

Anyone here ever build a Dynel creek boat? Dynel cloth is not that expensive.... but is MISERABLE to work with.....

In a similar vein to that thought, would G-flex be usable as a layup resin?

[kleroy]

If a durable, cost-effective composite (glass) material comes to market I think things will really change in terms of designs out there. The problem with plastic isn't just the cost - it's the weight.

I'm sure you've heard this common saying: Light, strong, cheap -- pick any two.

I've heard it in bicycle circles; but it seems common to just about any piece of sports gear.

[RodeoClown]

I think composites have their place, as does royalex, and PE. I love the feel of a composite hull under me on a wave. Composites are easy to do a one of a kind boat economically, but for "production" it's tough. People balk enough at paying $1500 boat. I think cost is the biggest drawback... The old "boatbuilder's triangle of death" strikes again. (I added the "of death part)

Adam makes some other good points. People ask me how long it takes me to design or build a boat. I honestly don't have any idea how much time I have invested. I don't keep track, and honestly, when I'm doing it, I often lose track of time. There have been times when I've been in the shop until 2am, and not realized how late it is. Which is good because it means 1) I must enjoy what I'm doing to some degree and 2) I don't get depressed thinking about how much time I spend doing it vs. how much (little) money I'm (not) making. I think Adam is also right that designs come in waves. I know I feed off of other designs being done, trying to figure out what works and why, and what can be done better and why, how I would do things differently.

Creating demand... yes, but I'm fairly certain extreme isn't the way to go...but that's a whole 'nother thread.

[ezwater]

I think we sometimes forget the difficulty of boat design and the tangential or conflicting goals that must be somehow reconciled to get a good result.

No canoe can be all things to all people, not even when you restrict the universe of people to creekers or racers or cruisers. That's why it's amazing when a ww design comes along that pleases a lot of people for a fairly long time. The Dagger Ocoee would be an example.

I doubt that construction material is a big issue. The L'Edge in PE is certainly light enough, though heavier than my giant Millbrook. Where PE fails is for designing large canoes. Try to make a Caption out of PE and you will have a floppy pig. But for small boats, PE is fine.

[Yukon]

Craig-my comment on too many in line to get paid has its price for boats with limited market.
take your L'edge- lots of factor into pricing a boat
For the manufacture-cost of production, cost of marketing, cost of running the business, then profit-
Then add sales reps and dealers and the price goes up significatly. This is the typical business model for most retail products.

How many L'edges are gonna get made in the next year 200- 400-800 certainly not 3000 or so. At the end of the day it needs to be worthwhile for the manufacture. So if Esquif themselves made 25 to 50% more on every l'edge they sold, they would have more play room to try different materials and such.

For canoes with a much bigger target market like a 16foot prospector it is much easier to get volume and makes sense to use present dealer model

Todays age of internet makes marketing so much easier and there is something to be said to trying boats out.

I am not trying to denounce the current distribution methods but they do have a costs that the consumer pays. Probably the reason that Milbrook and Kaz are not wholesaling boats- the end price to the consumer would be too much. I think Mohawk does factory direct.

I am just throwing out ideas for discusion as I like to see new designs, concepts and materials and other factors may play into the big picture more than people think.

I would love to see a kids solo, a tandem plastic c-2 but the market is too small for anyone to spend serious money to put them into production.

I saw some kids sit on top kayaks recently for I think $129 or $150. Were an interesting concept they stacked togethor very effeciently and the shipping costs would be greatly reduced.

If the solo canoe market will pay $1500-$2000 for a new boat the more that ends up in the manufactures pocket the more chances and devoplments they can make.

[2opnboat1]

In terms of cost remember pe is bought in pellets and royalex is purchased is sheet form with only one manufacter. (This manufacter has jacked the prices up every year for a few years and now have crazy mininmums that have to be bought of each sheet size, and color. So to get 1 purple sheeet of x boat you have to order 10 and wait a few mths. I know we would love to be to stok every olor for every boat but this is out of the question.

As far as making an old design if we have the sheet we will form it up
we like to form.
The other thing PE is cheaper in raw material but then you have to farm out the molding or set-up a whole other processing line ($$$$$).

Do we want to rotomole (to some degree) could we yes are we prob not. The real bread and butter of the canoe world is the big long boats guess what not even WW boats. Most companies sale a lot mor rec boats then they do WW. It is hard to put a years wages into design and mold making ww boats, when rec boats will break even in a 1/5 of the time. I have note books of design ideas for WW boats that will prob never see light much less production. REC boats pay the bills and our paychecks WW is my passion and love. This just my two cents and really dont matter
We are a factory direct company that is how we keep our oast down. It works but it is a pain.

[FullGnarlzOC]

No PE Maxim anymore?

[Mr.DeadLegs]

I want a PE Probe 14, and I want it to weigh less than 40lbs and I don't want to spend more that 600.00. YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT !!!!!!!!!

[FullGnarlzOC]

lol. wouldnt that be sweet.. although, you might have to lose the 14, and drop it to a Probe 8 if you want it to make weight.....then they can ship it in a crate n u and the boat can go on a date right out of the gate... but leave home ur mate...and remember...dont be late.

[2opnboat1]

Tommy I am still working on it

[gumpy]

richard you know we are all eagerly awaiting the maximus

[Lennart]

@ mr deadlegs

get 300 dollar of pe wrapping-foil, put thit around a probe 14 , get a heatgun melt it together.

there you go pe probe 14 for half the price not sutre about the weight or the siffness


back on topic.
I do not think that materials are the problem. monney is.

proper R and D is in the whole paddling industry not very proffessional. there is simply not enough monney, to make a lot of testboats or come up with good enough science /math /simulations ect to really progress. Just in flatwaterracing, most brands still wonder what the best shape is. Their goals are simple. the design of a whitewater (open) Canoe is much more difficult.

I think the guys of esquif/mohawk/blackfly/bigdog are showing courage to still invest time, monney and other resources in getting new boats on the market.


Just hoping that 3d printing in a nice material for reasonable costs will be the future so that transport issues will be gone.