Is there a warranty on new prelude?

[markzak]

Well said Rodeoclown... exactly! If YOU break your boat running some stupid class V its not covered under warranty. Those guys killing the green in liquid logic boats, get turned away when they bring their month old boats in to the factory for a replacement because they destroyed it. What did you think would happen running that mank? And even worse, those guys are running class V in the backyard of the LL owner and friends of LL.

But your plastic boat shouldn't break running normal rivers and creeks. But if you're running 200 days a year and you break it on run number 200, it could be argued that it was normal wear and tear. So your warranty is covering manufacturer's defects in the first year, which can be somewhat subjective. Generally, I've seen boat manufacturers tend to honor the warrantee, probably because of how easy it is to spread bad publicity on public boating forums, and I have a bunch of friends who have gotten replacement shells for boats that cracked. I can't speak for esquif from experience at all though. My only experience with Esquif is paddling their boats, including the flatwater boats, which I have always found to be of high quality in design and construction.

And yes, boat welding is not that hard, very effective, and that amish dude is the man.

[markzak]

I looked into this previously... you can also insure your boat with any insurance company. I asked State Farm about it...

State Farm has a non-motorized watercraft policy. Its not specific to whitewater at all, but its like any insurance policy...you pick your coverage limit, deductible, and they quote you a rate. That would cover the boat in situations where the manufacturers warrantee did not, or was expired, etc. It can also cover neglect and abuse, depending on the plan. I think it came out to around $40 a month for the soup to nuts plan, with super low deductible, but that's PER BOAT, not for the fleet.

Your boat should be covered under your renter's/homeowner's insurance when its at your property, and it may be covered under your auto insurance when it is on the roof of your car. My policies cover my boats in these situations. But feel free to ask your insurance people about covering your boat, I was completely honest and said "I wanna run hard and stupid whitewater and i want my boat to be covered if I break it"... insurance guy goes "We can do that"

[Larry Horne]

So basically, if you take your broken boat to the rep, bragging about how freaking gnarly you are, you'll just get turned away and laughed at (kind of like how I treat you on this forum ).

[gumpy]

isn't running gnarly whitewater the prelude's intended purpose?

that said, i'd still think its easier/faster to weld a crack than to swap hulls.

[Smurfwarrior]

In a slightly more philanthropic mindset, do we really want people "returning" well used (and broken) boats to the few manufacturers that still make WW canoes for a new free hull? With the amount of boats that they actually sell, VS the cost of doing what Jackson Kayaks does... they wouldn't make a profit and would of course stop making boats for us. I know of people that will purposely break a Jackson near the end of the year to get a free fresh hull for the next year. Not saying that that would happen amongst our community but that door would be opened. When I buy a new boat, if it gets to me in the condition that it was supposed to get to me in, then the manufacturer is off the hook unless it breaks when it shouldn't have due to defect. I just don't think we can have the attitude that kayakers have and still be able to have new designs hit the market for us.

[markzak]

If I'm buying a new boat, I expect a product that is worth $1,500-$2,000. I don't care if the Royalex is junk that year or whatever... if you can't produce a product worth the asking price, don't sell it. I'm not paying the same $ for a crappy boat, because YOUR suppliers are making a worse product for you to work with. You shouldn't even need a warranty on a product that is designed to last 5 years, it should just last. The problem with the Jackson creek boats is that they used to crack like its their job, not crack running class V, crack just taking them off the roof of your car. Is that what you expect from a $1,000 boat? I know Jackson has moved away from cross-linked... but its part of the business. And I know others who love their jacksons and haven't had to warranty them.

What if your new L'edge boat only lasts this one season? Would you be disappointed and voice your opinion on the quality of the manufacturing/looking for a warranty boat? I would, that's for sure. I'd expect a new L'edge to last 5 years under even pretty tough use. Looking at and paddling the L'edge, I have every reason to believe that they will last at least 5 years.

Producing boats and selling them, especially open canoes for whitewater is probably the hardest paddling niche market to get into. But that doesn't mean I'm expecting a crappy product for the price. Point being... as a consumer, I'm not the guinea pig for boat manufacturers (although I would happily be if they threw me some demo boats to use and promote).

[Smurfwarrior]

If I boof onto a pointy rock and crack my new L'Edge tomorrow, I wouldn't complain. I'd just fix it and move on. Its not the manufacturers fault that it broke, it would be mine. I think expecting otherwise is unrealistic. Bad batches sometimes happen, but we're not talking about, that I think.. I think the issue is breaking it while using it as intended.

[2opnboat1]

finally a interesting thread. So many issues to consider

[markzak]

I think it'd have to be a 20 foot boof onto a pointed rock to break a factory L'edge, which is outside of the realm of what the boat was designed for. If you hit a 3 foot boof onto a pointed rock in a class III rapid, and it broke, I might be disappointed, because I'd expect the boat to be designed to handle that (and honestly, the boat would probably be fine if you did hit such a boof onto a pointed rock).

Maybe you expect less out of your boats, and that's fine too. For $2,000 I expect a boat to handle class III for 5 years or more, and really I expect it to handle most class IV for 5 years. But if you're swimming after your boat in class IV, the boat is probably being subjected to class V abuse.

[milkman]

Just like we have a way too lawsuit-happy society, so too do we have people who take advantage of warranties. The fact of the matter is things wear out. My Kokatat GFER drysuit was toast after 5 years. Leaks in the booties, legs, shoulder. Some people I know would have tried to get them to replace it on warranty. Some such people I know have been successful by being a squeaky wheel. The result is we all end up paying for it since the manufacturer has to pay for it somehow.

My policy is to use commonsense and be reasonable. I knew why the drysuit was leaking--I had used it for at least 50 paddling days per year for 5 years, had gone through all kinds of brush scouting drops, carried a lot of canoes on the shoulder that developed a leak, walked miles in the booties with them rubbing against my boots and wearing thin the fabric. The drysuit failed because I used it hard.

Same with canoes. When my regular solo canoe was a Royalex boat, I was going through them in about three years. The rocks out west here are sharp. The boats usually started delaminating at the chine around where my body sits. That's where they took the most hits. I would do some repairs for a while, then sell it and get a new boat.

I don't know how long the Prelude will last. I'm in year three. It has all kinds of scratches and gouges, but still takes hits and bumps like no Royalex boat I've ever paddled. Still, if it was destroyed after three years of paddling, I'd feel I had gotten my money's worth. Things wear out--especially the things you love and use a lot.

Just the same, manufacturers make mistakes and need to be called on it. I bought a Sierra Designs sleeping bag once, took it on a trip that was 20 degrees warmer than its rating and froze my hindparts off. I tried to return it and they wouldn't take it back. I've never bought anything from that company since. A one-man lifetime protest. Plus I tell a lot of people about it--like just now everyone in this forum. That's the kind of bad press a manufacturer wants to avoid. I had a similar experience with an REI sleeping bag I bought for my son. We returned it after the first trip and REI was gracious about it as usual. (Though I have seen many people abuse that graciousness.)

I agree we shouldn't be giving canoe companies a free pass to use crappy Royalex. I think delamination issues in the first year should count as a warranty issue. I also think that if you don't think the Royalex is thick and tough enough for a whitewater boat, you shouldn't buy the boat or should return it before you use it. Manufacturers will get the message. But if you use the boat, you're basically saying that it's okay with you and you think the boat is acceptable.

As for that Kokatat GFER, Kokatat repaired the suit for less than $150. I don't expect to get another 5 years out of it--it's wearing in other places and has other potential failure points--but I'm sure I'll get $150 worth of dry paddling out of it.

[markzak]

this all my main point... for $1,500 or whatever... bad batches shouldn't happen... boats shouldn't break in less than a season under normal use, and you shouldn't sell a canoe with sub-par Royalex because that's all you can get. Its not that I (unspoken we) are trying to scam the warranty system, its just that I (we) expect a quality product.

Normal use has a different definition for plastic vs. Royalex. I wouldn't expect a Royalex boat to survive the same abuse as a plastic boat. Milkman is right in that by buying Royalex boats, we're accepting the fact that their "normal use" and what it is designed for is not as hardcore as what normal use is for a plastic boat. Point still being though, that I expect my boat to last for a reasonable period of time, under common sense circumstances. Just like we can't expect manufacturers to keep making boats if we're not buying them, manufacturers cannot expect us to keep buying boats if they're made like crap! So if they do make a crap product, they should expect warranty claims left and right. And if they don't live up to their warranty program in a common sense way, they will be publicly humiliated, as Milkman has done for Sierra Designs.

I'm not implying any manufacturers are making crap canoes - quite the opposite in reality. There have been reported Royalex issues, but I don't know the status of that and if unhappy customers have been dealt with fairly. I think manufacturers have realized long ago what I'm saying here about quality products and standing behind your products to keep customers satisfied in a reasonable way. Manufacturers should be proud of their warranty, because they know the product is so well made that nobody will ever need a replacement because of a defect.

[Smurfwarrior]

Is cracking a brand new boat on a manky class V run considered a defect? I think thats the obvious question. Unless the boat is advertised as being totally indestructable I don't think you have a claim. Seems we are all on the same page, where obvious defects should be taken care of, but the question remains how to define normal use.

[markzak]

Is cracking a brand new boat on a manky class V run considered a defect?

No. I would say normal use for Royalex is class III or less, which includes a class III sneak on a class V rapid. And normal use for a plastic boat is class IV, upper yough at the harder end. That's what I expect out of my boats. I expect a Prelude or L'edge to handle an entire season of running the Upper Yough (or similar run like Chattooga IV), actually I think they should last 5 seasons on the Upper Yough assuming your boat isn't floating away without you, picking its own lines. Both boats probably would last 5 years on that.

That's one reason why I don't open boat hard class V all the time, besides how challenging it is. I can't afford a new open boat every year or few years, when I can get a used kayak creek boat for $300 and convert it C1 style and it will last me at least a season of abusive, even stupid class V running.

[Smurfwarrior]

Makes sense...

[Craig Smerda]

fwiw... most of the "broken" boats I've seen since I've been boating have occured from one of two things... a stress point poking through the hull or a "tear" from running over a small pointed protrusion on the river that literally knifes the hull

on the bright side... rotomolded boats can be welded...

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1425641/