Finesse

[oopsiflipped]

I see it frequently posted here that kayakers lack finesse and that canoesists have it in spades. But when I see people actually boating, this doesn't always seem to be the case. Although you can make up for a lot with the second blade, especially paddling a slow boat, I'm wondering why everyone seems to think that kayakers, especially those paddling at a high level, lack finesse or the ability to use the river features to their advantage. I'd also like to know how someone finesses a boat with 20 gallons of water in it. If paddling a canoe is all about finesse, maybe Dooley can tell us why he goes to the gym so much.

[Shep]

I guess I agree with what you are trying to say by "only the best..." but really, I think I would phrase it differently. I think there are a lot of kayakers out there that have finesse, and a lot of canoeists who are duffers, but I think getting comfortable in Class 3 requires some finesse in a canoe that it does not in a kayak. I think hard creeking in any kind of craft requires more finesse than running the Zambezi in a kayak (Flip-over, roll-up! Flip-over, roll-up!, Flip-over, roll-up!). On the other hand, I feel like the really big water that canoeists have paddled definitely requires finesse since making roll after roll after roll after roll is probably not realistic.

Shep

[oopsiflipped]

good point shep. i should have said something like 'canoeing at a higher level requires more finesse than kayaking' for that option, but i can't edit the poll now that votes have been cast.

[Cheeks]

Can you edit it so that I can vote for the last two? Because both are true

[FullGnarlzOC]

I don't believe the boat has anything to do with the finesse. I think its more the paddler...

You have plenty of OBers 'claiming' to have good finesse... but what is probably happening is, they just have more finesse than power. I've seen Kayakers have great finesse. Creeker is a great example of kayaker having more finesse than OBers... in his old age(;)) and the abuse his body has taken through over 5+ years of running the class 5+ steeps... wayne has developed some great finesse skills. Ability to use the water, and minimize strokes has allowed him to go big consistently for a long time.

I think the key here is that... finesse wins over power, in my opinion. Power is a luxury that some people will just never have, but with proper finesse - it doesn't matter. With that being said... someone who masters the finesse game and has world class power...is going to be a league above the rest... perhaps thats why Dooley goes to the gym so much. Because power certainly won't hurt.

My paddling focus has went something like this... All about power, then switched focus to being technical and using more finesse... Now I can see myself switching focus back to power... with the right about of both being applied, the sky is the limits.

Again back to the original question... I think it just depends on the paddler... although in general - A kayaker and canoer on the same class level... the canoer will need more finesse than the kayaker because of only 1 blade, and less perfomance from the boat... have to use the water more efficiently than a kayaker.

[greybear]

oppsiflipped:
You have been paddling with Boardwine, yes he paddles a kayak, but I have seen paddle as single blader, he his trap in a kayaker body, but he paddles like single blader.
Greybear

[craig]

I agree wholeheartedly with Eddy McGnarlz's last paragraph

[milkman]

It's the paddler that determines the finesse. You can be a hack at any level in any craft. Or a god.

[RodeoClown]

I'll save the admins some work....
Gabe, you <edit>ing <edit>, what the <edit> kind of question is that?

But seriously, I think we need to first look at what "finesse" is, and whether or not it's separate from both power and using river features. I think that finesse is a subtle combination of power and using river features. It's totally possible to use the features to pinball down something with minimum power, but that's no more finesse than charging down the meat of something. Look at a good slalom paddler- there's a heck of a lot of power there, coupled with using the features of the river. It's those two working together that make finesse. Effort made to look effortless if you will.

To answer the question who's got more, I'd say it's a wash.

[2opnboat1]

I agree with rodeoClown but i also think it is one of those things you are born with it or not. YOu can teach yourself to use the river when to power stroke and when to boof; but true finesse i think you are born with. We have all seen the 90lb girl kick everyones but on the creek/river. Some folk have it the rest of us are trying to find it.

[Yukon]

Finesse is something u feel.
Women and smaller guys tend to have more finesse as they dont always have the same capacity to develop goon power.
Finesse is something u develop over time.

Finesse is comunicating with the river, letting her know your intentions of where u want to go and her then telling you what stroke to use, when and how, how much power to use, how much edge to use and so on. When u start to have a 2 way conversation you are developing finesse.


Does not matter the boat you are in or the sport u are doing.

[cadster]

A T-grip and a vertical paddle tend to focus a paddler on “finesse”. Where as two blades and sitting lend one to use “power”.

Plus kayakers can get away with reacting more to whitewater versus executing a route. Recovery always seems easier when kayaking versus canoeing.

[golder]

in my opinion, i think finesse on the river boils down to using the features of the river better, which amounts to reading the water better.

in my experience, the average canoeist at any particular level is often reading the water a little more closely than the average k boater at that same level.

as you get into more technical whitewater in a cboat, i think you need to sometimes read water a little better than your buddies in kayaks have to. they can get away with more. i've found that my friends that hand paddle kayaks read water more like the cboating crowd than the rest of the other kayakers do.

[Dooleyoc-1]

Finesse for me means maximizing the river features with minimal effort (think how many fewer strokes Wayner or Kaz takes on section of a slalom course than the average paddler; they are 1 stroking upstream gates and most folks take 5-10 strokes to make it through an upstream gate) That is efficient.

Power is having that big stroke when you need it to make it into an eddy when you are full of water. And yes Gabe, I agree that paddling a canoe full of water on a continuous class V run at med/high water (like west prong, upper big creek, Ramsey's at high water etc...) in a canoe is more about strength and less about finesse. The same goes for running super continuous stuff out west. Imagine how much strength it would take to turn a whitesell full of water on the NF Payette... That takes power.


PS- a lot of class IV kayakers can get away with being sloppy however it is really cool to paddle with EJ, Dane and Clay on the Gauley and watch them play every feature on the way downriver with style. They have serious finesse.

[marclamenace]

Whenever playboating myself, finesse is always where I'm trying to grow. But when the little finesse I got lets me down, I know of only two things to compensate for it: power or a solid roll.

If every seems to agree there is a need for both and a good combination is what makes a great boater in any craft, I definitely see amongst novice and intermediate paddlers a strong tendency for yakers to look at how big they got and take that as the ultimate acheivement, while canoers are more towards how they did this or that, strokes and techniques they use etc. Not sure why or if that's just me.

And yeah the type of water says what skill you need on a given moment. Rocky shallow stuff needs more finesse to find the water and follow it efficiently, big water needs power like gabe and dooley said. No matter how much finesse you got, a big hydraulic needs you to build speed quickly before, then boof and reach to punch and/or brace the landing...