A little history

rainfoot · Post by **rainfoot** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:51 pm

Two related questions are rattling around in the grey matter between my ears:

1) Which Cboat currently in production has the oldest history? I am guessing perhaps the Ocoee if both Dagger & Bell are factored in... or might it be something in the Probe series? Outrage? Or something else?

2) Which Cboat model has the highest number of manufactured units, and about how many is that?

enquiring minds want to know

Sir Adam · Post by **Sir Adam** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:53 pm

I'd guess the ME

for "oldest" boat still in production... though Kaz still has a mold for a modified Czech C1, so perhaps that wins the prize.

All depends on what you consider "production" I guess.

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:13 pm

Really looking at sales, you have to look at the market, and while whitewater is awesome, most canoe sales are flatwater, touring, tripping, etc.

Most popular boats on your local class I maybe class II run are where you should look for high volume sales and longevity in the market.

I think Grummans and the Old Town Discovery series probably in one way or another answer your questions. I think the grummans were a WWII era boat that they never stopped making and the Discovery's were in the early-mid 1980's and are still the boat of choice for many big outfitters.

I own an ME and love it and would be interested if anyone knew a better history of the boat. All I have heard is conjecture and a relatively adult orientated story on how it came to be called the ME.

madmike · Post by **madmike** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:36 pm

Mark, I wanna hear that story over a frosty someday.

rainfoot · Post by **rainfoot** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:37 pm

[quote="markzak"]Really looking at sales, you have to look at the market, and while whitewater is awesome, most canoe sales are flatwater, touring, tripping, etc.

Point taken, thanks. I was meaning 'WW OC/C1' and did not specify that in my initial post.

Post by **sbroam** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:05 pm

I'd think a Mohawk might be in the running. I'm not sure how often they sell an XL, but I bet they still have the mold...

John Coraor · Post by **John Coraor** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:11 pm

rainfoot wrote:I was meaning 'WW OC/C1' and did not specify that in my initial post.

I'm afraid that even that qualification doesn't really narrow your choice. You have to keep in mind that in the 1950s a 15 ft. Grumman with a "shoe keel" was considered a state of the art whitewater OC-1 or OC-2 (depending on how you paddled it). In fact, it was considered more manuverable and less fragile than the foldboat kayaks also used around that time and thus was typically THE preferred WW craft for both singles and tandem paddling. Since Grummans are still manufactured, Marzak's citation is still accurate, although a Grumman would certainly not be considered state of the art today.

John

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:32 pm

As far as whitewater specific solo canoes... I'd speculate that the Ocoee/Viper series are most likely high up in the running for being the boats currently in production that still generate some actual annual sales volume.

The MR Outrage has also been around for quite some time and I'd venture to guess they've sold quite a few over the years.

I'm not sure if you'll be able to find any actual sales or production numbers though... best to contact Dagger, Mohawk, Bell and Mad River if you are doing something for a project or article.

Sir Adam · Post by **Sir Adam** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:33 pm

Re the ME - if it is an adult-oriented story, that is probably the correct one

I don't know the story, but I do know a bit of the Millbrook history, as where John Berry had his shop for quite a while was in Riparius, NY, about 15 miles from where I grew up. Lots of "real" Millbrooks, as well as "prototype" Millbrooks in the area that never quite made it in to production (I'm not saying Kaz's aren't real - they are, and are very, very nice boats - I'm defining "production" Berry Boats and design prototypes).

There is an interesting history to a lot of the names...
Flasher
Flashback
ME
ME Too

etc....

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:40 pm

I would say the XL series and yes we still sale a fair number of them

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:01 pm

Sir Adam wrote:Re the ME - if it is an adult-oriented story, that is probably the correct one

Awesome, yeah that's the story... I will share story for beer. As a teaser to the story... its my understanding that the Hahn C1 hull was actually the basis for a lot of the open canoe designs that came out New England (J. Berry/J. Sweet), including the ME in that late 1970's time period.

Just wanted to pass along the interesting history that many famous OC1 boats were initially, in some ways, based off a European C1 design.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:19 pm

2opnboat1 wrote:I would say the XL series and yes we still sale a fair number of them

Any idea of how many Viper 11's & 12's have been sold over the years Richard? Just curious...

markzak wrote:Just wanted to pass along the interesting history that many famous OC1 boats were initially, in some ways, based off a European C1 design.

The original F.H. "Edge" canoe was based on the Cudamax... I believe. (Not 100% positive though)

http://www.cboats.net/util/fullsize.php?image_id=86

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:22 pm

Why take a good thing and put a huge hole in the top of it? Just kidding.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:23 pm

markzak wrote:Why take a good thing and put a huge hole in the top of it? Just kidding.

they just "added sides" and a touch of wood

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:11 pm

Craig I have no Idea hole bunch

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A little history

A little history

Story?