Could someone get some side by side by side and front/back comparison photo's of the Fink/Atom/Cascade. (Example in Acrobat picture) It would be interesting to see the last three production plastic boats all lined up for folks so they could visualize the differences in the three.
Thanks,
Craig
Fink vs Atom vs Cascade
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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Don Williams
- C Boater
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:44 pm
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pyle
question??
Mabye I'm a little unclear as to why people love these boats so much (atom, casacde and the finkimeister).
I have paddled the atom and the cascade a number of times and unless you're running rivers all the time these boats seem quite limiting. They are long, have huge volume and need a wave about the size of a small house to surf on.
Don't pigeon hole me as a playboater only, I still paddle class 4+ whenever I get the chance but I use a newer boat design (LL little joe). It offers me the ability to both play and run sweet lines. Any other time I paddle my Wavesport T2.
Basically what I'm curious about is why a number of C boaters love these old boat designs so much. I mean you rarely see people paddling dancers and R7s down rivers any more.
Just curious
don't want to step on anyones toes
Thanks
Jim
I have paddled the atom and the cascade a number of times and unless you're running rivers all the time these boats seem quite limiting. They are long, have huge volume and need a wave about the size of a small house to surf on.
Don't pigeon hole me as a playboater only, I still paddle class 4+ whenever I get the chance but I use a newer boat design (LL little joe). It offers me the ability to both play and run sweet lines. Any other time I paddle my Wavesport T2.
Basically what I'm curious about is why a number of C boaters love these old boat designs so much. I mean you rarely see people paddling dancers and R7s down rivers any more.
Just curious
don't want to step on anyones toes
Thanks
Jim
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Sir Adam
- CBoats.net Staff
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Boats...
Different boats for different folks.... I mostly boat long glass boats...fast and fun. I do drag out the Cascade for some creek runs, though...fastish, forgiving, and high volume. And I must admit the Finkenmeister, when I track one down, may become my creek boat instead. We'll see.
Regarding Dancers, etc..., I'd say you see about as many Dancer's as Gyramax's
. Actually, I saw about 5 Dancers at the Derby race this past weekend where folks wanted a faster boat, but didn't have a race boat.
What I DON'T see many of are the Hahns, Sages, and the like from the 70's and early 80's. Not that they aren't out there....
Regarding Dancers, etc..., I'd say you see about as many Dancer's as Gyramax's
. Actually, I saw about 5 Dancers at the Derby race this past weekend where folks wanted a faster boat, but didn't have a race boat.What I DON'T see many of are the Hahns, Sages, and the like from the 70's and early 80's. Not that they aren't out there....
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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Bruce Farrenkopf
- CBoats Addict
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- Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:35 am
- Location: Reno, NV
Hi Pyle,
I've paddled all three of the boats mentioned.
The Cascade is very limiting as a playboat. That is, it doesn't surf waves well and it doesn't play well in a hole. Instead, the hole has all the fun playing with the Cascade. Once a Cascade gets in a hole there is plenty of time for the hole to have its way with the hapless boater - it is very tough to get out. This boat is absolutely dull to paddle on anything less than Class 4-4+, but is really in its element on Class 5. The Cascade as a river runner on large volume difficult water (4-5) is exceptional. It is predictable, stable, fairly fast and punches holes. It rises stabley and quickly to the surface after dropping off falls. It can also boof fairly well. It is difficult to find a kayak conversion that does as well in difficult water, although it seems the Pyranha H3 255 may be a worthy contender. I no longer paddle the Cascade. It was replaced by a Perception Stikine conversion ( admittedly a poor choice as a C1), and now I'm paddling the Fink. The Fink is working out well.
The Atom is a very different boat. It paddles well in class 3-4 and is really alot of fun. I've had it on class 5 many times and found it to be a liability due to its relatively low volume and edginess. I sold the Atom and I have some regrets about losing it.
Many of us are maintaining an interest in new and older C1 designs for a good reason. We argue that a boat designed to be a C1 is more likely to perform better for a C1er than a boat designed to be sat in. For that reason it is in the C1ers interest to encourage manufacturers to design and build new C1 designs. The alternative is to to the best we can with the relatively vast selection of kayaks that will always be suboptimal for the C1er simply because they were not developed with the C1ers boat-posture and other requirements in mind.
Robson has taken a chance on the C1 community. Bravo!
SYOTR,
Bruce
I've paddled all three of the boats mentioned.
The Cascade is very limiting as a playboat. That is, it doesn't surf waves well and it doesn't play well in a hole. Instead, the hole has all the fun playing with the Cascade. Once a Cascade gets in a hole there is plenty of time for the hole to have its way with the hapless boater - it is very tough to get out. This boat is absolutely dull to paddle on anything less than Class 4-4+, but is really in its element on Class 5. The Cascade as a river runner on large volume difficult water (4-5) is exceptional. It is predictable, stable, fairly fast and punches holes. It rises stabley and quickly to the surface after dropping off falls. It can also boof fairly well. It is difficult to find a kayak conversion that does as well in difficult water, although it seems the Pyranha H3 255 may be a worthy contender. I no longer paddle the Cascade. It was replaced by a Perception Stikine conversion ( admittedly a poor choice as a C1), and now I'm paddling the Fink. The Fink is working out well.
The Atom is a very different boat. It paddles well in class 3-4 and is really alot of fun. I've had it on class 5 many times and found it to be a liability due to its relatively low volume and edginess. I sold the Atom and I have some regrets about losing it.
Many of us are maintaining an interest in new and older C1 designs for a good reason. We argue that a boat designed to be a C1 is more likely to perform better for a C1er than a boat designed to be sat in. For that reason it is in the C1ers interest to encourage manufacturers to design and build new C1 designs. The alternative is to to the best we can with the relatively vast selection of kayaks that will always be suboptimal for the C1er simply because they were not developed with the C1ers boat-posture and other requirements in mind.
Robson has taken a chance on the C1 community. Bravo!
SYOTR,
Bruce
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
Well... I'm sort of curious to see/show the differences in mass produced production plastic c1 specific boats in the last 10? years... what the hades.. throw in a gyramax and let's call it 15+ years. It may seem odd that there's only been 4? new designs when compared to any one kayak company that has three sizes of one model kayak around for 1-2 years. Granted I will paddle a conversion before most of them... I still want to see some "evolution".... hey! there's a good name for the next c-1 we will get... 3-5 years from now. dam the board of director's and shareholders or...... at least show support for companies that go out on the limb (it's not cheap!) and try to make that one size fit's all model for us. It's all about the number's these days folks.
(I just saw something interesting the other night. Pfizer the pharmecutical company (Major kayak company) has less interest in producing and researching a drug to help fight against new strands of common viruses (C-boater's) than it does in increasing worldwide production of Viagra (kayaks))
food for thought
(I just saw something interesting the other night. Pfizer the pharmecutical company (Major kayak company) has less interest in producing and researching a drug to help fight against new strands of common viruses (C-boater's) than it does in increasing worldwide production of Viagra (kayaks))
food for thought
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Don Williams
- C Boater
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:44 pm
Hi all,
I finally got my Fink, I'm going to need to do a lot of outfitting but I think it will end up being very nice. I took a few quick snapshots of it with the Atom and Cascade, I'll try and post them here. Not sure how the forum likes files, if I have a problem I'll post them elsewhere.
Oops, doesn't work, I'll post a link in a bit.
Don
I finally got my Fink, I'm going to need to do a lot of outfitting but I think it will end up being very nice. I took a few quick snapshots of it with the Atom and Cascade, I'll try and post them here. Not sure how the forum likes files, if I have a problem I'll post them elsewhere.
Oops, doesn't work, I'll post a link in a bit.
Don
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Don Williams
- C Boater
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:44 pm
Ok, the photos are posted here http://groups.msn.com/MiddleForkSalmon2 ... tsnew.msnw
Click on "Pictures" to see them, they should be in the first album.
Click on "Pictures" to see them, they should be in the first album.
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Sir Adam
- CBoats.net Staff
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NICE-Thank you!
Great shots! Do you mind if I post them to the CBoats boats pages? They really do put things in perspective!! I must say the image I had in my mind of a finkenmeister was a bit different (not so deep).
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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Don Wiiliams
Adam,
Sure, feel free to copy them. These were some hurried shots to finish off a roll, I was also rushing to get a bit of outfitting in the Fink so I could take it to a pool.
I'm leaving for a four day vacation on Martha's Vineyard (what great timing!) so I won't be able to do anything with the Fink until I get back. I'll try and take some more pictures, perhaps I can even add a Gyromax to complete the set.
So far I'm feeling really good about the Fink. When I picked it up at the airport I took it donw to the local playspot (T'ville on the Farmington) and unwrapped it. The foam wasn't glued to the beavertails so I was very loose, I would have fallen out if I needed to roll. I fooled around in the eddy and did a few ferries in the current below the hole. Seems like it ferries well, very easy to correct the angle if you get a bit off.
I glued the foam to the beavertails and added a couple of wedges to the bulkhead before heading to the pool yesterday. It rolled easily, perhaps needing a bit longer pressure on the paddle when rolling. Especially with my weight forward and the boat on edge it tracked very well.
It turned very quickly when I wanted it to and felt quite responsive. A very light but very good paddler at the pool managed some very nice pivot turns, I could get the tail down and around since I outweighed him.
At least in flatwater the low initial stability mainly made it feel very quick edge to edge, of course this perception might change when I get it in some real rapids.
The bow is very deep and seems quite short. Even more than shows in the photos the tail appears long and skinny.
Any Fink owners have any outfitting tips? I need to cut the beavertails back quite a bit, right now they are so tight I can't get all the way onto the pedestal. They also have me moved a few inches in front of the back of the seat, although I believe some people have done that on purpose.
Any thoughts on the best way to add minicell to the bulkhead? All my boats have used a thighstrap system before this. I think I can get my legs a bit further apart by cutting the kneeling pad back, right now it is about an inch thick. Has anyone tried to get their knees very far apart by moving "up" the flared portion of the hull?
I'm really looking forward to playing with the Fink when I get back, will post a report once I know something.
Don
Sure, feel free to copy them. These were some hurried shots to finish off a roll, I was also rushing to get a bit of outfitting in the Fink so I could take it to a pool.
I'm leaving for a four day vacation on Martha's Vineyard (what great timing!) so I won't be able to do anything with the Fink until I get back. I'll try and take some more pictures, perhaps I can even add a Gyromax to complete the set.
So far I'm feeling really good about the Fink. When I picked it up at the airport I took it donw to the local playspot (T'ville on the Farmington) and unwrapped it. The foam wasn't glued to the beavertails so I was very loose, I would have fallen out if I needed to roll. I fooled around in the eddy and did a few ferries in the current below the hole. Seems like it ferries well, very easy to correct the angle if you get a bit off.
I glued the foam to the beavertails and added a couple of wedges to the bulkhead before heading to the pool yesterday. It rolled easily, perhaps needing a bit longer pressure on the paddle when rolling. Especially with my weight forward and the boat on edge it tracked very well.
It turned very quickly when I wanted it to and felt quite responsive. A very light but very good paddler at the pool managed some very nice pivot turns, I could get the tail down and around since I outweighed him.
At least in flatwater the low initial stability mainly made it feel very quick edge to edge, of course this perception might change when I get it in some real rapids.
The bow is very deep and seems quite short. Even more than shows in the photos the tail appears long and skinny.
Any Fink owners have any outfitting tips? I need to cut the beavertails back quite a bit, right now they are so tight I can't get all the way onto the pedestal. They also have me moved a few inches in front of the back of the seat, although I believe some people have done that on purpose.
Any thoughts on the best way to add minicell to the bulkhead? All my boats have used a thighstrap system before this. I think I can get my legs a bit further apart by cutting the kneeling pad back, right now it is about an inch thick. Has anyone tried to get their knees very far apart by moving "up" the flared portion of the hull?
I'm really looking forward to playing with the Fink when I get back, will post a report once I know something.
Don
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oregonmatt
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:49 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
Don -
My one outfitting tip would be to get your seat height set before cutting the beaver tail foam back too aggressively. I cut the beaver tail foam to a good, snug width for my hips with the seat at the factory height, ended up lowering my seat about two inches, and now am a bit loose between the beaver tails due to their tapered shape. They hold me in just fine, but I need to make it a hair tighter to feel like the boat is fully responsive to my hip movements.
Matt
My one outfitting tip would be to get your seat height set before cutting the beaver tail foam back too aggressively. I cut the beaver tail foam to a good, snug width for my hips with the seat at the factory height, ended up lowering my seat about two inches, and now am a bit loose between the beaver tails due to their tapered shape. They hold me in just fine, but I need to make it a hair tighter to feel like the boat is fully responsive to my hip movements.
Matt
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
Thanks Don!,
These photos should really help folks "C" the difference in the boats, and their designs. The depth of the Fink alone is probably very encouraging for bigger folks who would prefer not to wedge themselves into a conversion, and you can see the volume distibution between the three is radically different. The Cascade and Atom both have very rounded hulls where the Fink has some flat edges and a bit of flare on the sides. I would believe that once you get the boat up to speed on moving water the stability issue changes a bit.
These photos should really help folks "C" the difference in the boats, and their designs. The depth of the Fink alone is probably very encouraging for bigger folks who would prefer not to wedge themselves into a conversion, and you can see the volume distibution between the three is radically different. The Cascade and Atom both have very rounded hulls where the Fink has some flat edges and a bit of flare on the sides. I would believe that once you get the boat up to speed on moving water the stability issue changes a bit.
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Don Williams
- C Boater
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:44 pm
Hi all,
Just a quick posting to catch everybody up to date. Last weekend I was out on Martha's Vineyard so no paddling, while I was there I had a cracked tooth which has had me out of commission. It looks like the root canal won't save it (I look like a lopsided chipmunk) and they are scheduled to pull it on Tuesday.
I had planned to do some outfitting on the Fink, paddle it locally during the week, and then take it to the Moose. As it is I'm not even sure I'll be up for the Fife Brook section (cl 1-2)of the Deerfield tomorrow.
I should still be able to get up to Quebec over Memorial day and give a full report, keep your fingers crossed.
Don
Just a quick posting to catch everybody up to date. Last weekend I was out on Martha's Vineyard so no paddling, while I was there I had a cracked tooth which has had me out of commission. It looks like the root canal won't save it (I look like a lopsided chipmunk) and they are scheduled to pull it on Tuesday.
I had planned to do some outfitting on the Fink, paddle it locally during the week, and then take it to the Moose. As it is I'm not even sure I'll be up for the Fife Brook section (cl 1-2)of the Deerfield tomorrow.
I should still be able to get up to Quebec over Memorial day and give a full report, keep your fingers crossed.
Don