L'edge: is anyone keeping the decks?

Smurfwarrior · Post by **Smurfwarrior** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:32 am

Kaz- had you had your current policy in place when I bought mine, I would have paid the shipping myself to be able to support a boater.

Any new Esquif I get new will be from you.

Acosi151 · Post by **Acosi151** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:43 am

kaz wrote:
Is that price difference a matter of US dollar vs canadian dollar?

Jkaz

Nope.. that's what makes it even harder to swallow.. the CND $ has been at close to parity with the USD $ since before the L'Edge was released.. right now the CDN $ is actually worth a couple cents more than the American dollar. (for the decade before the economy tanked it hovered right around being worth 15% less so the dollar argument used to make sense).

I've got a new L'edge coming next week that I eventually purchased from the local dealer (who doesn't stock white water boats and has taken a month since I ordered it to deliver). I priced it out of Quebec from one of the biggest dealers in the province and it was still a couple hundred more than the prices advertised from American dealers before tax. And since I could avoid tax by buying it out of country in the end this thing is going to cost me right around $400 more than it should

But... I work at a Canadian Manufacturer and I understand... our stuff is cheaper in the states too...

As Canucks we take it in the a$$ on the price of beer... gasoline.. and well.. canoes now too I guess.. I don't like it but I'm used to it. Economics 101: More options available = more competition = lower price. One of the biggest oil refineries on the Canadian east coast is right down the road from me and I still can save $30 a tank by buying my gas from the same company but at their USA pump 15 mins from my house (the Canadian pumps are 5 minutes away). So... lets see.. a tank a week over a year is what... $1500 in savings??.. wait.. that's almost enough for a new boat...

....... from Virginia

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:41 am

Is it other operating costs? is it taxes? higher taxes that retailers have to cover? are exports taxed lower?

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:58 pm

It would be good to know why, as it just does not look good when you see it published in Rapid Magazine side by side. I would imagine operating cost would be the same, there should be no import/export duty because of free trade, the dollar is worth the same. I have not seen suggested retail prices for the US market but have seen the Canadian.
When there is an advertised price difference like that it does not do anyone any good. The world is too small with the internet. I could understand if the price difference was reversed- that would make sense.

Anyways my new L'edge is waitng for me in the snow in Whitehorse as I am still in Mexico for another 10 days and I am going to enjoy the boat immensly over the summer. I plan to write a full review on it soon. I am 210 before I get my paddle gear on and just an ordinary average open boater who has paddled for a long time. The Ledge is going to change the face of who open boats

chuckneese · Post by **chuckneese** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:15 pm

I am at 220 and have paddled a LOONNNNGG time as well. After paddling the L'edge I have to agree that it is the best thing out there!

ice-breaker · Post by **ice-breaker** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:42 pm

Acosi151 wrote:
kaz wrote:
Is that price difference a matter of US dollar vs canadian dollar?

Jkaz
Nope.. that's what makes it even harder to swallow.. the CND $ has been at close to parity with the USD $ since before the L'Edge was released.. right now the CDN $ is actually worth a couple cents more than the American dollar. (for the decade before the economy tanked it hovered right around being worth 15% less so the dollar argument used to make sense).

I've got a new L'edge coming next week that I eventually purchased from the local dealer (who doesn't stock white water boats and has taken a month since I ordered it to deliver). I priced it out of Quebec from one of the biggest dealers in the province and it was still a couple hundred more than the prices advertised from American dealers before tax. And since I could avoid tax by buying it out of country in the end this thing is going to cost me right around $400 more than it should But... I work at a Canadian Manufacturer and I understand... our stuff is cheaper in the states too...

As Canucks we take it in the a$$ on the price of beer... gasoline.. and well.. canoes now too I guess.. I don't like it but I'm used to it. Economics 101: More options available = more competition = lower price. One of the biggest oil refineries on the Canadian east coast is right down the road from me and I still can save $30 a tank by buying my gas from the same company but at their USA pump 15 mins from my house (the Canadian pumps are 5 minutes away). So... lets see.. a tank a week over a year is what... $1500 in savings??.. wait.. that's almost enough for a new boat...

....... from Virginia

Atlantic Canada is not the only ones being gouged by Esquif in Canada. I ordered a new L'Edge several months ago, to be shipped to Alberta at end of March. We are paying about $2300 CDN (before shipping), which is about $500 more than the $1800 USD price quoted previously in this thread in the USA. Makes me sick to my stomach to pay this much more than others are paying for the same boat, but what can you do. Hope the performance lives up to the reviews. It's snowing again today, but I cannot wait for the local rivers to break up.

regards
dave

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:20 pm

i just noticed in Canoe Roots magazine also produced my Rapid Media the Ledge was listed at $1500 cnd. No mention of US price. I know as with anything the more you buy of a product the cheaper it gets- thats why the Big companies get bigger. The Appotomac Canoe Company looks huge and looks like the have very good prices on all of their boats.

I am not jumping to any conclusions that it is all in Esquifs hands with price differences. Rapid Magazine is media and I know that Media is a not always accurate and figures do change.
Esquif is a small manufacture and business in the scope of things and they are taking chances on open boating that at the moment is only being matched by Black Fly Canoes. Black Fly Canoes sell direct and have no dealer network otherwise the price of their boats would be higher.

Also remember that with the Internet checking on prices, shopping around is way easier than it used to be and I am sure makes it harder for the small boat shops to compete.

EsquifVince · Post by **EsquifVince** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:26 pm

Even though I work for Esquif, I do not have all the answers... I sell the boats... I do not buy the plastic, know the operating costs or build the pricing structure of the sales program I work with... So this is all just my personnal 2 cents, not an official Esquif press release.

Our CDN VS US pricing has been adjusted right on the 2011 program so that it reflects the 2010 CDN$ vs US$ yearly average, so, no more 15% difference like a few years ago...

Even with the free trade agreements, we still pay import taxes on the plastic we buy from the US (go figure... free what??? trade???? never heard of that...)

The situation that we currently see with such a difference in retail price can be found in any kind of consumer goods right now, but in such a small community as WW canoeing, it is more obvious, especially with the Internet...

The competition in retail is much bigger in the US than Canada, so, yes, dealers will eat-up a bit of margin to offer a better price. I just bought a TV in the US and saved big bucks, about 20% less than what I would have paid at home... in Quebec for example, we live with a 15% sales tax on everything we buy, more than that if you're buying gas, alcohol or tobacco...

Also, at a price way over 4$per USgal. in Canada, it cost us a fortune to ship to the west coast... much, much more than shipping to the US east coast.

Example with a TV:

Same big store: Best Buy, same TV, from S Korea

US Retail: $299.00us + 3% sales tax = 307.97us (@ 1,03 exchange rate) $317.21cdn
CDN Retail: $329,00cdn + 15% sales tax = 378.35cdn

we get a 17% difference, from the same store, one in Canada, one is the US, same item...

The cost of living is just higher in Canada that it is in the US right now, not much we can do about that... tell the big banks, the ore mining companies? Canadian oil driling co. ? Do not vote for Harper next time? I do not hold the answer to this problematic... Everything is more expensive in Canada right now... Food, cars, you name it, we pay more!

Like stated at the beginning, this is not an official Esquif statement. please, let me speak for myself on this one and I promise you that whenever I have something official to say, Cboats will be the first place to know!

ice-breaker · Post by **ice-breaker** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:52 pm

In my simplistic world (and maybe I am wrong), a canoe manufactured in a Canadian factory will leave the factory at a base price per canoe that is the same no matter where it goes to. (I realize that high volume purchasers may get a price break over a purchaser that buys in lots of 1 or 2.) Looking back at the Bank of Canada historical exchange rates, it appears that on average in 2010, $1 US was equivalent to $1.0299 CDN. Thus the difference in exchange rate is only about 3% and on a $2000 canoe, would account for a price difference of $60 between a $US and $CDN price. The price $2300-$2400 CDN price I have been quoted (prices varied slightly between dealers) by the local shops did not include shipping, and I was told that the shipping costs would be extra. Given that the Appottomax L'Edge was sold for $1800 US excluding shipping (say about $1860 Cdn), that still leaves a difference of $340 to $440 CDN for the same product. On a $2000 purchase, that is a price difference of about 20% for no apparent or justifiable reason.

My new L'Edge will be here in a month. I will pay what is being asked for it, but I don't believe it when anyone tells me there is a valid reason for me paying so much more for the same boat than others.

phreon · Post by **phreon** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:19 pm

A few folks in this thread posted that the decked version of the L'Edge is hard to grab hold of. Have you considered adding a deck grab line, similar to what's on many sea kayaks? They make screw on deck fittings for that application.

Link to an example

I don't think a well placed deck line would be (much of) a snag hazard.

Doug

busterblue · Post by **busterblue** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:13 pm

That's a cool idea.

After my first trip in the decked L'edge last weekend, I did not actually find it that difficult to handle--even during my swims. On land, it takes a little getting used to, partly because of the weight. This would not have been a deal killer for me. It just imposes... a certain mindfullness. I can't just toss the boat around like my old Outrage.

So far, I'm glad for the decks.

I'm still trying to figure out a comfortable way to use my bilge pump. So I was reduced to dumping for small amounts of water--in my Outrage I would have just pumped it out. I followed Craig's tech tip for drilling holes in the ends. It might be nice to have an even bigger hole in the stern, although I'm not eager to do more drilling.

phreon · Post by **phreon** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:03 pm

busterblue wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out a comfortable way to use my bilge pump. So I was reduced to dumping for small amounts of water

Figure out how to mount one of these (link) or these (link).

Doug

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:40 pm

I've seen sea kayaks with foot operated bilge pumps so you don't have to stop paddling. How to do similar in a canoe... hmmmm....

phreon · Post by **phreon** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:12 pm

sbroam wrote:I've seen sea kayaks with foot operated bilge pumps so you don't have to stop paddling. How to do similar in a canoe... hmmmm....

I was thinking about that, but omitted it. The only foot pump I could find was this (link). 2 gallons a minute at best and max 2 foot lift seemed kind of wimpy when considering the L'Edge's volume.

I'm not sure I could operate the pump long enough to be useful without my foot cramping. And how do you mount it so you can reach it with your foot but not cause exit issues? Attach it directly to a foot pedal and just accept a springy feel on one side? Maybe it could be knee or thigh operated?

Doug

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:48 pm

All I've got so far ar bad ideas, baaad ideas....