Got Speed?!?

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:39 pm

my point was/is... shorter boats have made me learn how to utilize more of the rivers natural ability to get me were I've got to go rather than soley relying on hull speed or technique.

fez · Post by **fez** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:46 pm

marclamenace wrote: for a same bottom design and given width a longer boat with less rocker will also get more stability (more of that same bottom actually touching the water.)

agreed

ESP · Post by **ESP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:48 pm

I agree totally that short boats encourage the use of natural river features. The very best paddlers use them consistently in any boat they paddle. They are the folks that make everything look effortless.

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:26 pm

ESP wrote:I agree totally that short boats encourage the use of natural river features. The very best paddlers use them consistently in any boat they paddle. They are the folks that make everything look effortless.

A little Pushback...

Us long-boaters (if 13' can be considered long for a solo boat) must use river features as much or more than those with shorter, more maneuverable boats. We must use the peaks of waves, small reversals and eddies to turn in moving water. Our only advantage is superior ferry and downstream speed.

You like the troughs, we like the rest.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:34 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:my point was/is... LONGER boats have made me learn how to utilize more of the rivers natural ability to get me were I've got to go rather than soley relying on EASE OF DIRECTIONAL CHANGES or technique.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:36 pm

my point was/is... shorter boats have made me learn how to utilize more of the rivers natural ability to get me were I've got to go rather than soley relying on hull speed or technique.

I would argue that is "technique." Good technique. In a long boat or a short boat.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:39 pm

I agree Bob... in some cases... it actually takes more finesse to paddle a long boat than a short boat.

More hull means more surface area to get pushed around by the river. The last time I was in a 13ft boat I literally didn't remember to do with all of that hull speed... but I also didn't recall how to deal with all that extra length getting shoved around.

Long boats... short boats... it's all good.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:18 pm

??? some ???

Perhaps the reason people have gone shorter, is that these boats are more forgiving. That shorter is easier to paddle, and that you don't have to be near as good. It's a bit comical that we are being schooled on long boats, by someone who thinks 12-to-13 feet is long. You're ability shines in a long boat, and they are really fun to zoom around in.... but only if you have the wherewithal to handle one. For you have to use what the river gives you even more... whether it's using a wave, hole, rock, current differential, etc.... your timing has to be more spot on.... and all the speed in the world means it just happens faster.

The reason for small on a creek, is to get to places a longer boat simply won't fit... places a long boat can't go.... ease in carrying in and around... to boof better... and to be able to play... for there's some mighty fine play features that most go by.

Of course like:

Shep
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:50 am

I don't think this is a discussion... I think this is one side of an issue being presented, the other side being presented in response, and some people ignoring the response.

we weren't really discussing.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:39 pm

Larry Horne wrote:
Craig Smerda wrote:my point was/is... LONGER boats have made me learn how to utilize more of the rivers natural ability to get me were I've got to go rather than soley relying on EASE OF DIRECTIONAL CHANGES or technique.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:00 pm

philcanoe wrote:
Larry Horne wrote:
Craig Smerda wrote:my point was/is... SLIM PICKENS boats have made me learn how to utilize more of the rivers natural ability to get me were I've got to go rather than soley relying on DOGS PLAYING POKER or technique.

word twisting muther'z...

philcanoe wrote:

??? some ???

yes some

I don't know if you are talking to me or Tommy... but I don't consider an Ocoee a long boat or a short boat... 11ft. is now the new "medium" Phil... haven't you heard?

it's easy to paddle a l---o---n---g boat down a river for almost anyone as long as they don't have to turn it very often... then you better have or quickly learn that "finesse" word.

I think most would agree that on tighter more narrow creeks or runs that require a lot of turning or quick maneuvers a shorter boat simply works better and is easier to utilize for most paddlers. Regarding river running in general... it's "paddlers choice"... your options are virtually limitless.

slalom courses...

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:06 pm

Perhaps the reason people have gone shorter, is that these boats are more forgiving. That shorter is easier to paddle, and that you don't have to be near as good. It's a bit comical that we are being schooled on long boats, by someone who thinks 12-to-13 feet is long. You're ability shines in a long boat, and they are really fun to zoom around in.... but only if you have the wherewithal to handle one. For you have to use what the river gives you even more... whether it's using a wave, hole, rock, current differential, etc.... your timing has to be more spot on.... and all the speed in the world means it just happens faster.

If longer boats are harder to paddle, then why do we tell beginners to get in long boats? Stability, and tracking, right? Right.

Phil - My first two boats were an ME, and an XL13. Surely the 15.5ft ME is what long enough for YOU to consider it a 'long boat'. As a 'next generation' paddler...11-12ft boats can now be considered long - especially with all the sub 11ft designs.

I will say this... I attribute a lot of my quick progression from learning to handle the XL and ME. But harder boats to handle? No. Theres a reason why the majority of the ppl cant handle the instability and high performance of some of the designs that we have.... and its not because they've been paddling short boats their whole lives.

It's also the reason why the L'edge is as popular as it is...I mean really think about it... 5 yrs ago, if someone said..."hey we're going to come out with a plastic boat that ways 70lbs - and everyone will want one." Most would have probably laughed, in regards to the weight, and not really cared about the length, stability, and handling..... but here we are - L'edges everywhere... and people are happier than ever with them. and rightfully so, Esquif hit it out of the park with their new creekboat.

PS - Longboatin... theres not a single downriver move that you could hit on the UY, that I couldn't. And if we took turns hitting each others moves all day....well...I'd take it easy on u.

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:58 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote:... I attribute a lot of my quick progression from learning to handle the XL and ME. But harder boats to handle? No.

Take both those down Tremont and get back with us...

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:50 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:
philcanoe wrote:
Larry Horne wrote:
word twisting muther'z...

philcanoe wrote:

??? some ???

yes some

I don't know if you are talking to me or Tommy... but I don't consider an Ocoee a long boat or a short boat... 11ft. is now the new "medium" Phil... haven't you heard?

it's easy to paddle a l---o---n---g boat down a river for almost anyone as long as they don't have to turn it very often... then you better have or quickly learn that "finesse" word.

I think most would agree that on tighter more narrow creeks or runs that require a lot of turning or quick maneuvers a shorter boat simply works better and is easier to utilize for most paddlers. Regarding river running in general... it's "paddlers choice"... your options are virtually limitless.

slalom courses...

smerda wins, HANDS DOWN! post with the most emoticons.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:22 pm

Larry Horne wrote:smerda wins, HANDS DOWN! post with the most emoticons.

[img]http://mhpbooks.com/mobylives/wp-conten ... /smile.jpg[/img]

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:06 pm

I’ve spent a good amount of time paddling boats from 14 to 6.5 feet long. For all those lengths, an Ocoee challenged me the most to paddle well so length isn’t everything. If you include decked boats, then slalom C-1's topped the Ocoee in difficulty.