Need Tandem & Solo WW

[MBedard]

Petitioning the family for a new whitewater canoe for Father's Day and looking for some advice. I'm looking for a tandem canoe that I can take out with my son but need it to also perform well as a solo canoe for myself. Both my son and I weigh 150 pounds. 95% of our trips will be in rocky New England rivers. We'll definitely be running up to Class II+ stuff and hope to grow into Class III. I don't anticipate ever running Class IV. I am not partial to any particular manufacturer and have read with great interest your posts regarding the Bell Nexus, Mohawk Probe 14 and Esquif Vertige X. I know compromise is inevitable and would prefer a boat that tracks well on the flatwater stretches as well. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...want to get this right the first time. Thank you!

[db]

whitewater boats, by thier nature just don't track well. The boats you mentioned included because all have substantial rocker .

Unfourtunately you don't get both. Will need 2 boats. Bigger boats like the Mad River Freedom and some good Prospectors handle class II+; good prospectors are drier and probably the best handling of these. Freedom's are ok, turn pretty good but because of shallow V hull are more difficult to heel and don't turn quite as quickly. Compared to whitewater tandems, these can track better but can't compare to a boat made for speed and tracking.

And thus the reason why many of us have too many boats.

But... if 95% really on class II rivers and just day trips, get a true whitewater boat. If looking for something to handle gear and some rapids, check out the prospectors by Trailhead, Esquif (supposedly a very good one), and maybe Navarro.

[Ed Leahy]

Any boat you get will be a compromise so you need to set your priorities. Dedicated whitewater boats will be manuverable, but track poorly and are slow in flat water. I have a Mad River Royalex Explorer and a Mohawk Probe-14, both of which I have paddled solo and tandem. The Explorer is a good all around boat. Its reasonably fast and manuverable for a 16 foot boat and I've run a lot of class 3 water in it. It would be a good choice for your stated purpose. The Probe is much more manuverable, but is lots slower and doesn't track as well. Its a good boat if you are paddling a lot of class 3 and up, but I would get tired of it real fast in flatter water. I've heard good things about Esquif but have never paddled one.
Regarding the shallow V hull of the Mad River, I have found it fairly easy and stable to heel the boat over.

[billcanoes]

I would choose a dagger legend 15. If you could only have one boat. You will have to find it used though. It has some rocker, and has good load capacity for trips.

[yarnellboat]

I agree that there are a number of good "compromise boats" that are slightly flared and rockered for class II - III whitewater, without giving up too much speed and tracking, such as the MR Freedom as mentioned, or the Old Town Appalachain. I am also curious about Esquif's Prospecteur and its more whitewater-oriented Canyon, perhaps similar to Evergreen's Starburst? These are mainly ww boats, could be a bit taxing on lakes, but not as touchy as a Probe or something like a true ww boat (Synergy or Caption).

Anyway, above somebody mentioned "good Prospectors" as an appropriate boat for this, implying that not all Prospector designs are dry and well suited to whitewater. A few brands are named as good. Are there certain brands of Royalex Prospectors that are known to be lame?

Specifically, I'm wondering about Nova Craft's 16' Prospector.

P.

[Tim]

P.
I have Some Nova Craft Prospectors you can test if you want, on Vancouver is. Lots of people like them as a good example of a real prospector. I agree with what has been said regarding mad river, etc. but the Legend is too ugly (slab side and fat ends), the Appalaition is a very nice tripping to class 3 boat, a bit slow, as you would expect. Hard to slag an explorer. But for all round performance and unsurpast good looks hard to do better than a prospector. The second tandem can be a caption or blast or...

If there was one best boat we wouldn't have to choose and we would miss all this chatter.
Cheers
Tim

[yarnellboat]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the offer for a test drive. But it's a done deal. I was out bid on a fully outfitted used MR Freedom on the Island ($CDN 1600), and I'm going down to Bellingham to pick up a used outfitted NC Prospector ($CDN 975).

I'm hoping it will be lighter and more responsive than my OT Disco 169 without sacrificing anything. Any thoughts on moving the NC Prospectors' seat closer togeth (a la Freedom) to improve its ww performance? - I'll make that a new post.

If I get over to the Island with time to paddle, I'll post something here. If you're on the the mainland and look into what the Beavers are doing, I paddle ww with them a lot.

P.

[danab]

In reply to Freedom and Explorer shallow V hull: Yes they are very stable and thus part of the problem as takes guite a bit of energy to heel these boats--the nature of the V. Compared to Prospectors, Caption and other boats with rounded hull and good secondary stability---these are a cinch to nail over on the rail and get good crisp carves and turns. After time doing freestyle in Flashfire, I like a boat that is easy to heel in a carve and will firm up on the rail. Not to take anything away from the Freedom as it is a nice boat, but not as snappy of a performer as a true Prospector.

I am told that Esquif has bent over backwards to come up with a true Prospector design and handling boat. Trailhead, as I mentioned above too. I have heard a model by Nova Craft is great as well, and maybe Navarro?..

But again these are boats for whitewater when you are packing overnite gear.

For day runs, nothing compares to a whitewater dedicated boat with good rocker etc.

[Tim]

P
Looks like you got lots to think about with moving seats around. As a tall guy that likes the Bow, the prospectors can dictate a little narrower knee placement than the Appalaition or Mad rivers but if your parrtner is smallish, no worries.
I try to phone Roger & Alyson if paddling in Vancouver.
I hope to paddle up Whistler way in a couple of weeks, to test out a Bell Prodogy X. Maybe see you then?
CU ina C1 (or prospector)
cheers
Tim