Rolling questions

[Mikey B]

Okay, I finally have my Delirious conversion feeling pretty good and am having a blast with it, but I'm having some problems with rolling.
I've been using a snapdragon kayak skirt and it's popped on me on my attempts to roll on the river, so I went to the local lake to work on my technique (I've only ever rolled my Shaman, which is quite easy to roll up but very heavy with all that water).
I found if I wore the skirt quite low it would stay on...atleast in flatwater.
So anyway, doing low brace rolls to my onside was easy, doing a high brace roll on my offside, if I tucked and got into position, I rolled up nicely too. So okay, I never seem to go over on the river in a nice set-up position , so I start trying to roll up after doing some bow stalls. No can do. It seems when I try to get swung around to my setup position that I can't stop the boat from turning and get out perpendicular to it to roll up. So now I start trying to roll by just falling over in all kinds of awkward positions and I found I couldn't stop the boat from wanting to turn as I was trying to get in some kind of familiar starting point. Are there some tips for rolling these smaller boats? I thought it'd be a snap after rolling a 12'-7" boat
Is it just practice , practice, practice?
Oh, I did try backdeck rolls, which it took a couple of trys, and they were so dang fast I found when I thought I was out perpendicular to the boat I was actually already swung forward. My friend on shore told me this, so I found that it seems like when I roll onto the backdeck, and to me it felt like that when I hit the water, if I did my my hip snap I rolled right up. Man, what a fast roll. Why don't more folks use it? ...afraid of the face being exposed to the bottom?
I'm sorry if I'm not real clear on describing what's happening, part of it is I'm not sure of my orientation while under water. I know some of it is just psychological, having an added step of a skirt to pop if I don't roll up.
It seems that right now, if I were to make a successful roll on the river, I'd have to be in a position where I felt like I might be going to go over and then making myself go over in either my tucked forward position or say throwing myself onto the back deck instead of trying to stay upright...not worded well...I guess I mean intentionally rolling (in a way I feel pretty confident I might roll up) instead of waiting to see if I actually was going over.
I have a friend here who has a pretty bombproof roll, so I might pester him as well.
Thanks,
Mike

[Cone Bone]

Mikey,

Sounds like you have enough tricks in your bag, you just need more practice to figure it all out. I'd say get a skirt that won't pop and go play.

[(O)C]

Another good idea is to get someone to film you when you roll. Many digitial cameras can film for a couple of minutes and it's invaluable in seeing what is really happening above the surface

[Mikey B]

Filming would be a great idea. We've gotten so much rain and the water isn't so inviting for submersion, and I get so disoriented while upside down. Unfortunately I wear contacts so I can't open my eyes to see where I'm at spatially.
The biggest thing to me was I didn't get the sensation that I was able to get as close to the surface in the setup as I feel I do in my openboat. My friend, said I looked pretty much the same, so I know it was a mind thing for me. Filming would be brutally honest on my technique or lack thereof.
Also, when just flipping over with my paddle in no particular position, I know I need to be much more aware of the pitch of the blade, as if it's wrong, my paddle would dive on me...which would give me to many things to try and correct that I had to bail...which makes me think practice, practice, practice so I don't have to think about the roll and can concentrate on the other variables that occur.
I was just hoping there might be some tips to make it easier.
Thanks,
Mike

[ohc1]

Hi Mike,
I just got into a Deli myself after learning to roll in an open boat. I too noticed that I'm much closer to the surface in my open boat than the C1 when setting up for a roll. It took some getting used to, but I don't think it really changes the mechanics of my roll that much. Sure, I may tend to reach up for the surface with my blade a little more. But, if anything, I find that my problem in the C1 is over-powering the roll and going over on the other side! Having said that, if you find that it's just too disorienting being turtled and trying to figure out which way is up and which side really is your onside, you can cheat by a little "pre-roll" sculling with your blade up at the surface and then go right into your roll (however, I discovered the hard way that this is not really reliable at all on the river with aerated water and currents!) Finally, when practicing my roll, I find it helpful to not focus on figuring out my spatial orientation (I wear contacts too!) but instead I try to develop "muscle memory" for the set up position (e.g., concentrate especially on what it feels like in my torso when I am truly perpendicular to my boat).
Good luck!
Kevin

[Mikey B]

Kevin,
Hopefully the mud and crud settle down in the local lake and I will be more willing to spend more time practicing...or better yet, practice on the river.
I'm glad to hear I wasn't imagining my feeling deeper in the water. I too, noticed it didn't seem to affect rolling up...just a different feeling then what I was used to from my open boat.
I'm thinking maybe it would be good to slow it down some as well.
Thanks,
Mike

[Larry Horne]

if you teach me how to do an offside roll i'll teach you how to do an onside roll!!

[Larry Horne]

Oh yah, use a little surf wax on the back of the cockpit rim, makes the skirt stick like glue.

[the great gonzo]

My experience with the Delirious as C1 is that kayak skirts actually come off on the sides, as they are almost straight and since there is too much tension on them due to the higher paddling position as C1 and not at the ends.
This leads to very entertaing rides in holes , at least for your paddling buddies...
I got myself a custom skirt from Mountain Surf and since then I have no more problems with it coming off. Highly recommended.

martin

[Mikey B]

Martin,
That's exactly where the skirt was popping! When it blew on the river, I thought it must have been the back, but I got it in at home and played out on the lawn, I found that it was popping off the side when I rotated my torso. I was worried that it might be because I removed the inner coaming to get the extra width it afforded me. Playing with the skirt placement on the lake, it never let loose so I'm hoping it won't be a problem. It doesn't seem to be flexing in so I think I should be fine. Thanks for the advice on Mt. Surf...I was already pursuing that
Mike

[Mike W.]

My skirt will pop on the sides if I'm in a hurry putting it on the boat. What I found was that it was poping when I roll. To cure it, I just pull it out to the side before I let it seat under the rim. Then lean way over to the right to check the left side & lean way over to the left to check the right side. Mine always poped on my on-side. Oh, this is in a big ez, also with long, straight sides.

[Cone Bone]

Mikey,

Is your preferred set up position tucked forward against the boat, or with your body out perpendicular to the boat?

When I was learning, it really helped me to tuck forward with the paddle alongside the boat as my set up. Once in that position, swinging out perpendicular to the boat and rolling always is the same motion.

[Mikey B]

Cone Bone,
yep, I do pretty much the text book setup...tucked forward with either my forhead on my shaft hand or with the paddle alongside the boat. I'm probably 70-80% when doing this...the problem is I never seem to tip over this way while playing and I discovered I had a hard time getting into position. For example, let's say I just was surfing a wave and get blown off and I get in a unintended stern squirt that looks fantastic (the benefits of a story ) but tip backwards to my onside while my paddle was in a basically a high brace position. Now I'm upside down on my onside which should be a piece of cake to roll up, but my paddle is somewheres behind and on the otherside of where I need it...and here's where I found my failing...when trying to get out perpendicular to the boat (which is easy although my body feels deeper than I'm used to in my big open boat) I can't seem to get my paddle to cooperate and the blade dives or catches current or something and it feels like I'm twisting , the boats spinning, and no success. I know it's a matter of practice and getting the roll so I don't have to think about it. Maybe I need to go into the tucked forward position and then attempt my roll instead of thinking I can just shortcut with the lowbrace roll?
I really appreciate all the help guys,
Mike

[Larry Horne]

mike,
it does sound like you know what your doing, and just need to spend some more time in some holes, but for what it's worth.....
i never ever do a "setup", that always seemed like a waste of time to me. i just get my forehead to my paddle shaft while sweeping the paddle and my body out perp. to the boat. use the sweep to raise your paddle toward the surface, know what i mean? kind of an upside down underwater scull? this way you can feel the purchase before you snap, you can even start your snap a little early, 'cause you have purchase all the time. sometimes, it will turn the boat, but that shouldn't affect the roll. if you fail your first attempt, then you might want to start over & do a setup. i know this is probably some hack version of a real roll, and you've probably got way better technique. but it sure works good for me.
i really would like to know the mechanics of your offside roll, i've been trying these lately but have never seen anyone do it and have no clue.

[Cone Bone]

Just to confirm what works for me, not to say what I think is best for anyone else -

I do take the time to go into the full forward setup before I roll, as a general statement. This is particularly true if I am in any situation that is distracting or is freaking me out. It is a relatively safe place to get my head together, and I KNOW how to roll from that position. For every roll that I have missed when starting from the full forward setup position, I have missed 10 or more from various other positions. Also, my shoulder seems to get tweaked alot when I don't start from my reference positon.

This is specific to the usual roll. I have a pretty good back deck roll (I think) but I don't seem to use it much as a combat roll on the river. I have just trained myself to setup forward and then go for the regular roll.