Jackson crosslink (Elite) plastic: WTF and a half?

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:26 pm

So I recently ordered a brand new 4fun empty hull (C1 package they call it, you save about 300$) from my local retailer. Their Elite plastic is supposed to be their best product so I went for that. It's supposed to have 30% more elasticity than regular PE boats but just as though. Two weeks later the boat came and brought it home.

Plan was to put Larry's saddle in there. The boat came with both plastic-reinforced foam pillars, and a rod that runs through them both, acting as a hull stiffner but that doesn't touch the hull, up by about half an inch. The rod was on the way so I had to pull it out.

I thought the boat was light (cool!) but when I put the hull upside down, with both pillars in place, I can very easily, pushing with my small finger, make the bottom of the boat move by about two inches. No jokes.

Sunny side up, If I put my weight (165#) on the side of the cockpit rim, it moves down about one inch. I can twist the rim a bit quite easily too.

The boat back to the retailer right away. We get to compare it with similar JK crosslink boats hanging around the shop, those are more stiff then mine but not so much. The kayak seats are helping making the boats more sturdy for sure, but since the same rod is there as hull stiffner, you can make the bottom move half an inch, until you hear it touching the rod, quite easily.

The retailer calls at Jackson and are being told this is normal. Soft hulls are not a point of warrantying/replacing a hull anyways; it needs to be broken.

Now I don't know what to do. Would really appreciate to get other people's advices and experience on that type of plastic for C1ing. I know others (bernie?) have successfully outfitted jackson hulls, was it PE or Elite plastic? I have owned and outfitted 3 other boats (perception amp, dagger ultrafuge, LL Remix 69) and all three were much much stiffer than that. I could stand on the empty hull and it would move the bottom a bit but not that much... If I do it with this boat I might very well get a touchdown. Am I worried that hull oilcanning under me and it's brand new. Larry's saddle would for sure add a lot of structure and that would maybe set it but shouldn't a boat be able to hold up on its own first off? Now I am being told I absolutely have to put a wood twarth and bulkhead for reaching the cockpit rim. I even got told by the retailer I need my seat to reach from bottom to the sides of the cockpit around the middle, like kayak seat do. me: "well, my legs are there"

Overall although the boat has one year warranty I am sure I won't exactly break it the first year since I'll be using it on safe playspots, no rock banging, about 10-20 times a year or so... So being told there's a warranty doesn't reassure me much more.

Sorry for the long post, any help/advices would be appreciated...

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:35 pm

I think once you get Larry's saddle mounted in there it should be fine. You might consider just using some minicell under the saddle to stiffen things up a bit... but I'd ask Larry and a few others if that's feasible.

If you take the outfitting out of most any kayak you can push the bottom of the hulls in quite a bit with your hand... especially those with a larger flatish planing surface on the bottom of the hull.

Here's a boat I did for Eli... you could move the bottom of the empty hull an easy 2-3 inches prior to building the structure inside of it. This was all rough cut and installed for Eli to shape fit for himself... although I don't think he ever did anything past this point... oh that Eli???

I make a 3" center spine from a 36" piece of foam. I trace the factory pillars onto the foam and then draw up the seating area based on the distance between the two. Then I make the rest of the pieces and dry fit it all. Once that's done I glue and install the center pillar (wet fit) and then glue the rest of the pieces to the saddle and hull (also wet fit). Once it's all done... the bottom of the boat is stiff as nails.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:43 pm

If my pedestal will fit, Go for it. It will be as strong a rail as you could ever need. I would argue it's as strong as the kayak outfitting. And since the entire bottom of my rail is foamed, it should not create any stress riser. You may need to shim under it, because the rocker in a 6' playboat is quite different than a 8' creekboat.

The front part, bolted to the sides of the hull, is the same structurally as a kayak seat, just in a different place.

The back part is supported by the cockpit rim and pillar when you slide the seat under/into it.
If they insist on bolting the rear part to the sides of the cockpit, then you can get some aluminum bar and get handy with it.

If it seems really soft compared to other PE boats, I wouldn't accept it. Because the thing is, no matter what outfitting is there, you'll still have alot of unsupported hull.

But then, it's a playboat, so maybe you won't be trashing it by rock boofing everything in sight..?

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:32 pm

For those that haven't seen Larry's C1 setup B4...

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

It looks pretty sweet from this side of the computer monitor...

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:44 pm

Craig, was that you returning from a "lab" session? Is that your coach walking behind you?

I've heard that Jackson crosslink tends to be flexier than the linear used by other makers. If the "Elite" is "tougher," it might be flexier still.

Back in my day, plastic hulls used to be round, and we liked it like that! Of course, the shape of the hull markedly affects rigidity, and a flat bottomed boat is going to need more support from seat and wall structure. Though, maybe if one could get a light reinforcing panel to "stick", it might help. When converting an old Kevlar Noah from c-1 to kayak

, I found the bottom too flexy, and so added two layers of 5 oz Kevlar spanning between the front and rear walls, and between the chines. Maybe the Jackson just needs a few layers of hot-ironed duct tape on the inside surface.

Well, that's enough helpful ideas for now.......

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:38 pm

Thanks guys. Somebody else also answered in private a go-for-it, but I am still hesitant.

Sure, I could carry the boat on my back and not drag it around by the handle. Sure, I could avoid rock boofs and spins and cliff seal launch but those are just too much fun. I like to hit a playspot once every while, but downriver playboating is really what I am aiming for. See, if the goal was to get a nice but fragile boat to surf while being careful about I would have bought a Sith, hands down.

I know, a lot of it has to be due to the planing hull and the outfit should fix it mainly. I think the hull shouldn't feel too much oilcanning and it shouldn't affect performance but as for the long run... This flexier cross-link I was told would flex and pop back more than scratches and break as opposed to standard PE... But I've been banging my old hulls a lot and the scratches doesn't affect them much so far...

Oh well I guess I'm gonna go for it, hope for the boat to last enough and if not hope for the warranty and customer service both from the retailer and JK to do their job, but if it ever breaks I'll be asking for a PE replacement for sure...

I'll post more once the outfit job is done anyways. Thanks again for the thoughts!

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:01 pm

As Larry mentioned and I suggested... I'd make a nice wide minicell base that's the shape of the rocker profile for his saddle to sit on... better safe than sorry... and minicell is light and easy enough to cut.

an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and no... I don't know the metric conversion for that one.

rockyboater · Post by **rockyboater** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:22 pm

I'm just completing my outfitting job on a 4Fun (pictures to come soon) and have left the beam in to give the hull more strength. On my Super hero I was able to put in a thwart in as well, but on the 4Fun there's just not enough room to really make it work. I use the beam in conjunction with a bulk head glued into the boat to add strength. Then I run my straps from the cockpit rim to the beam, which also adds some strength to the whole system. If you decide to run a pre fab system, take a look at this link. Could be useful.
http://breatheproductions.com/jackson/m ... System.pdf

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:57 am

OK so just to close this thread and make it an even longer story, here are my conclusions so far after picking up the hull and talking again with my retailer.

I had quite a chock looking at my new hull compared to the other 3 C1 boats I own because of three reasons that all adds up:

1- kayak compagnies uses now much less plastic in their playboats then they do for their creekers (my remix) or like they used to do for older playboats (my amp and ultrafuge). Less weight aiming for bigger air.
2- The widish planing hull is completely flat on the 4fun, which makes for easy woggling in the middle part.
3- that cross-link (elite) plastic from JK is something else. Because it flexes more and scratches less they can make the boats even thinner.

If you look at Jez's C1 fun outfit you'll see it uses no holes in the hull. Jackson brags about their elite kayak outfit and the fact that it uses no holes, saying holes and bolts are a way to get water in. While this is kinda true, I think it was just not an option for them in fact to put bolts through such a thin and flexible plastic, especially to hold footbraces with yakers pushing on them like there's no tomorrow.

I began outfitting the boat this evening and my omg is that saddle ever sweet. It gives support to the bottom like nothing else and so far I was able to make everything fit pretty nicely. More on that later after I get it on the water to adjust the trim and go get more supplies at the store to get it finished. But my main challenge will be to keep the whole thing holes-free as I beleive now it is kind of mandatory somehow. I'll bet it would be hard to get JK to honor a warranty on a hull if my thighstraps bolts are pulling through the plastic...

Smurfwarrior · Post by **Smurfwarrior** » Mon May 02, 2011 3:30 am

I just brought back from the dead a Jackson Monstar that was cracked pretty bad in one spot and had many little tiny cracks that were working themselves up into proper cracks. You couldn't see them unless you did a weep test. The hull was oilcanned (that happened pretty quick after it was new) also. Jackson plastic sucks and I can't understand the claims of this type plastic making a better boat. Their warranty is excellent as it gets used very often.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Mon May 02, 2011 12:30 pm

Seems like a lot of talk and undue worry about what is in essence a disposable boat.

With what is known about repairing (or lack of) a cross-linked PE hull, it amazes why anyone would purchase one. Unless their pockets are a lot deeper than most of the boaters I know. Isn't this paramount to going back to (or preferring) an ABS hull, after finally being to get PE. Yes, it's a C1. It simply seems if light weight is the goal, then a composite hull would be much preferable as it's.... customizable, stiffer, and long lasting (repairable).

... plus (and I'm only guessing) a cross-link boat most likely will have a lower resale value.