Hi guys,
First off, this forum has a wealth of knowledge, and has been tremendously informative (i've been reading, but hadn't registered until now).
I have much outdoors and athletic experience and am in good shape, but I don't have much paddling experience. I've done my share of flatwater canoeing, ocean kayaking, surfing, but I haven't had the chance to get in some whitewater beyond family/friends rafting trips, and taking some old town recreation kayaks through some class IIs (I actually got one to surf sideways actually).
I'm intrigued by the possibilities of white water tripping, but I don't want a barge. I am used to packing light, and all of my gear and food together should only weigh around 30lbs.
I am 5'8" 150, and want something shorter, but I am worried about stability. I realize this is a bigger concern for novices, but I don't want a boat I cant paddle to put me off the sport.
I had originally thought about the Esquif Vertige, but 13' seems a tad long, as I'm not exactly a giant. I like what I hear about the Mohawk Viper 11, but I'm not sure whether it's be too much for me to handle to start off with.
Lastly (I know this seems like a very odd comparison) but I've seen people flip over constantly their first time in a L'edge (supposedly know for being a stable playboat - I am not considering one, btw). Which boat is more stable (Primary and Secondary) a Viper 11 or an Esquif L'edge?
Thanks!
Greg
P.S. Does anyone know of any shops/people near Truckee, CA who rent/would loan a boat (any boat, really) for me to try?
New to WW, looking for some good information
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Hey Greg,
I actually came into this sport the same way, wanting to extend my tripping possibilities.
If you can get your gear down to that level, which sounds like it should fit into a Sealline dry bag or two, then the sky is pretty much the limit for what canoe you can choose. Just know that some will be better on flatwater than others.
I have a Viper 11 and I think it's a great boat. It is a little difficult in the beginning, and you will definitely swim out of it more than if you get a super stable boat like a Nitro. But paddling a Viper will make you a better paddler in the long run. And with your body type, it'll be a real snappy boat.
Just know, any playboat like a Viper 11 will be deficient on long stretches of flats. If you are lake hopping but want to run a rapid or two over a five day trip, than you might want to look into a Bell Yellowstone or an old ME. But if you are looking at doing some river trips with some bigger rapids, than a playboat would be fun.
Check out Dan Flath's videos on youtube. While he paddles much more advanced rivers than what you are probably looking for, he has tripping out of a Viper 11 down pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLxF01bz ... re=related
Cheers mate, and remember, you can never have enough boats!
I actually came into this sport the same way, wanting to extend my tripping possibilities.
If you can get your gear down to that level, which sounds like it should fit into a Sealline dry bag or two, then the sky is pretty much the limit for what canoe you can choose. Just know that some will be better on flatwater than others.
I have a Viper 11 and I think it's a great boat. It is a little difficult in the beginning, and you will definitely swim out of it more than if you get a super stable boat like a Nitro. But paddling a Viper will make you a better paddler in the long run. And with your body type, it'll be a real snappy boat.
Just know, any playboat like a Viper 11 will be deficient on long stretches of flats. If you are lake hopping but want to run a rapid or two over a five day trip, than you might want to look into a Bell Yellowstone or an old ME. But if you are looking at doing some river trips with some bigger rapids, than a playboat would be fun.
Check out Dan Flath's videos on youtube. While he paddles much more advanced rivers than what you are probably looking for, he has tripping out of a Viper 11 down pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLxF01bz ... re=related
Cheers mate, and remember, you can never have enough boats!
Chris Loomis
Thanks for the response Tenzing!
That's interesting about the Viper 11 being deficient on the slow water. For some reason I thought it looked like it tracked well, I think I actually first saw it in action in one of Dan Flath's trip-videos. I would have considered the Nitro for stability reasons, but I hear it's like "paddling a beach ball," and people tend to move on from them rather quickly. If the nitro actually paddles decently on the slow stuff, I'll certainly consider it (i.e. could you trip/deal with some flatwater out of a nitro/detonator?)
Shoot, I was banking on the viper 11 being a bit more stable than some of the smaller playboats, with better tracking/speed because of the length. How would its stability compare to white water kayaks? (I've been in a pool with one of those before - though I know it's a tough comparison :/ ).
I plan on using it solely on moving water, and hope to incorporate more and more whitewater. Essentially:
-I want the boat to be able to handle bigger water (I realize that's down the road) -the goal is white water trips. I do, however, want something that isn't a complete drag to paddle on the slow water in between rapids. I'm not too worried about the performance on a lake.
I'd love to agree about not having too many boats (or other toys too for that matter), but they don't pay us grad students too much haha.
That's interesting about the Viper 11 being deficient on the slow water. For some reason I thought it looked like it tracked well, I think I actually first saw it in action in one of Dan Flath's trip-videos. I would have considered the Nitro for stability reasons, but I hear it's like "paddling a beach ball," and people tend to move on from them rather quickly. If the nitro actually paddles decently on the slow stuff, I'll certainly consider it (i.e. could you trip/deal with some flatwater out of a nitro/detonator?)
Shoot, I was banking on the viper 11 being a bit more stable than some of the smaller playboats, with better tracking/speed because of the length. How would its stability compare to white water kayaks? (I've been in a pool with one of those before - though I know it's a tough comparison :/ ).
I plan on using it solely on moving water, and hope to incorporate more and more whitewater. Essentially:
-I want the boat to be able to handle bigger water (I realize that's down the road) -the goal is white water trips. I do, however, want something that isn't a complete drag to paddle on the slow water in between rapids. I'm not too worried about the performance on a lake.
I'd love to agree about not having too many boats (or other toys too for that matter), but they don't pay us grad students too much haha.
If that's where you see your paddling going, than the Viper 11 won't be a problem tracking. It tracks better than almost any whitewater playboat I can think of, it just doesn't track as well as a flat/moving hybrid boat.
The stability question is a tough one, but I honestly think that if you buy a boat that is more stable to learn on, you're going to end up exchanging it in a year or two for a more playful one. And if you're learning on Class II/III, then having a few more swims probably isn't the end of the world. Also, if you learn how to roll, a Viper 11 is a good boat to roll with.
This is coming from someone who started off with an old Probe 12 and then moved into a Viper 11. If I had it back, I would have just started with the Viper. But then again I have canoed all my life and have only gotten into whitewater over the past three years.
The stability question is a tough one, but I honestly think that if you buy a boat that is more stable to learn on, you're going to end up exchanging it in a year or two for a more playful one. And if you're learning on Class II/III, then having a few more swims probably isn't the end of the world. Also, if you learn how to roll, a Viper 11 is a good boat to roll with.
This is coming from someone who started off with an old Probe 12 and then moved into a Viper 11. If I had it back, I would have just started with the Viper. But then again I have canoed all my life and have only gotten into whitewater over the past three years.
Chris Loomis
Hmm.
While I'd like to think I could adapt to the Viper 11, who knows what would happen in reality. Hopefully I'll be able to get some paddling time in one of these boats soon.
What are your thoughts on the nitro? For an all around boat and stability it looks pretty good, my only concern is how well it would paddle on slower water. Would you say the nitro is more playful than the probe 12?
While I'd like to think I could adapt to the Viper 11, who knows what would happen in reality. Hopefully I'll be able to get some paddling time in one of these boats soon.
What are your thoughts on the nitro? For an all around boat and stability it looks pretty good, my only concern is how well it would paddle on slower water. Would you say the nitro is more playful than the probe 12?
I'm sure there are many other people here who have more experience with it, but here is what I thought about the Nitro.
It surfs great. The hull design really lends itself to great, sustained surfing. In terms of playboating beyond the basic surf, I'm not sure.
It turns well for a boat its size. It's not as quick as the Detonator, but it's not barge.
It is slow and heavy. It makes paddling predictable, which, while fun at first, gets old quickly.
The best thing you can do is jump in both boats and see which ones you like best.
Cheers
It surfs great. The hull design really lends itself to great, sustained surfing. In terms of playboating beyond the basic surf, I'm not sure.
It turns well for a boat its size. It's not as quick as the Detonator, but it's not barge.
It is slow and heavy. It makes paddling predictable, which, while fun at first, gets old quickly.
The best thing you can do is jump in both boats and see which ones you like best.
Cheers
Chris Loomis
If your looking for bigwater tripping Id put the Nitro back at the top.
Drier than the vipers and more stable. (Im stilll trying to rap my head around that "beach ball" comment)
Although not good for all situations (like creeking) Id say it advances on bigwater tripping with a hull that'll allow you to play a little. It's bullbous end allows it to ride up on big waves and holes. It's multi chin edge allows for forgiving carve transfer (yea, maybe I just made up that concept) and its flatish bottom gives it a more modern surf ferrying platform
Drier than the vipers and more stable. (Im stilll trying to rap my head around that "beach ball" comment)
Although not good for all situations (like creeking) Id say it advances on bigwater tripping with a hull that'll allow you to play a little. It's bullbous end allows it to ride up on big waves and holes. It's multi chin edge allows for forgiving carve transfer (yea, maybe I just made up that concept) and its flatish bottom gives it a more modern surf ferrying platform
Proud Yankee
Try before you buy, and buyer beware.. are just two itty bits of advise I dare mention with caution. Beware of wolves -n- sheeps clothing as well. There are those here that will offer good advise, and others that are too blinded to do as well. Part of this is natural, for some people love to help and will direct you in the way they would go. However what's right for you, may not be right for them, and for that matter for me.
My advise is to try out what's being suggested, because these boats all tend to have traits, which are generated through compromise by the designer. Some are more rockered, some wider, some with sharp edges, and some with none. This will make the choice all the harder, but that's good. Kinda of like choosing which car would be best to fit your life style, or buy with taking road trips in mind. How much does comfort fit into the equation... how much does economy ... how much room should that car/truck/van/motorcycle have... how much ruggedness... how much power... how fast.... how much handling... can I sleep in it... and so on. This is what you are asking.
That said - if my primary concern is doing mutli-day wilderness trips, a 11 foot or shorter boat would not be my first choice. Not unless it was going to involve some rather serious whitewater paddling. These short boats tend to sacrifice speed, in favor of maneuverability. And ease of paddling in the flats, will make a big difference in how far you may go, and how well you'll enjoy getting there. You mentioned a Viper 11, great boat it's one of my favorites, and I'd choose it trip in on a Real-ClassIV wilderness journey. But are you really going to be doing any of this right now, in the next year, or even two? Chances are probably not, I could be wrong - maybe you will. I say that because, there are not many here that could do that. Not self-supported, with everything they'll need, at risk in the boat with them. When you get to that point, then you'll be ready to decide which 11 footer is best for you. So I'm thinking that you should plan on getting ready for up to Class III multi-day wilderness runs, and then get the next boat when ready for more. We've all been there, and it's more common than not, to have moved beyond the first boat we've bought. (hint: buy something resale-able).
With that said, I'd suggest looking at something in the 12 to 13 foot range at least. You'll be able to do the miles easier, and all but the most technical (steep) Class 3-4 runs. And even bump that 30 lbs up some, because tripping in a boat allows you some luxuries. I hesitate to suggest just one boat however, because you really need to rent, borrow, and just try-out as many different canoes as you can find. Just to see what the differences are. I think you're on the right track looking for a outfitter or shop, at the least they may know someone in the area doing what you want. You may also look for a canoe club (w/ forum ???) in your area, they usually are real helpful, and often have days in the summer devoted to exposing the sport. Look for Paddling events (races- fun days- rodeo's) usually there's boats to try and see, as well as locals to meet. And of course - there's often people on this site willing to help - Good Luck.
Could you name a few trips you've got in mind... that should help get you started in the right direction?
My advise is to try out what's being suggested, because these boats all tend to have traits, which are generated through compromise by the designer. Some are more rockered, some wider, some with sharp edges, and some with none. This will make the choice all the harder, but that's good. Kinda of like choosing which car would be best to fit your life style, or buy with taking road trips in mind. How much does comfort fit into the equation... how much does economy ... how much room should that car/truck/van/motorcycle have... how much ruggedness... how much power... how fast.... how much handling... can I sleep in it... and so on. This is what you are asking.
That said - if my primary concern is doing mutli-day wilderness trips, a 11 foot or shorter boat would not be my first choice. Not unless it was going to involve some rather serious whitewater paddling. These short boats tend to sacrifice speed, in favor of maneuverability. And ease of paddling in the flats, will make a big difference in how far you may go, and how well you'll enjoy getting there. You mentioned a Viper 11, great boat it's one of my favorites, and I'd choose it trip in on a Real-ClassIV wilderness journey. But are you really going to be doing any of this right now, in the next year, or even two? Chances are probably not, I could be wrong - maybe you will. I say that because, there are not many here that could do that. Not self-supported, with everything they'll need, at risk in the boat with them. When you get to that point, then you'll be ready to decide which 11 footer is best for you. So I'm thinking that you should plan on getting ready for up to Class III multi-day wilderness runs, and then get the next boat when ready for more. We've all been there, and it's more common than not, to have moved beyond the first boat we've bought. (hint: buy something resale-able).
With that said, I'd suggest looking at something in the 12 to 13 foot range at least. You'll be able to do the miles easier, and all but the most technical (steep) Class 3-4 runs. And even bump that 30 lbs up some, because tripping in a boat allows you some luxuries. I hesitate to suggest just one boat however, because you really need to rent, borrow, and just try-out as many different canoes as you can find. Just to see what the differences are. I think you're on the right track looking for a outfitter or shop, at the least they may know someone in the area doing what you want. You may also look for a canoe club (w/ forum ???) in your area, they usually are real helpful, and often have days in the summer devoted to exposing the sport. Look for Paddling events (races- fun days- rodeo's) usually there's boats to try and see, as well as locals to meet. And of course - there's often people on this site willing to help - Good Luck.
Could you name a few trips you've got in mind... that should help get you started in the right direction?
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Paddle Power
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A great post.
I have both a viper and the vertige and I have tripped with Dan Flath and used both canoes on the likes of the dog, puk, cascade, etc. I'm also a light guy at 135 pounds and pack lighter than heavier but not ultra light. I've done trips up to half a dozen nights.
Think about the rivers and the amount of flatwater.
Try out boats.
I love my viper but on spring wilderness whitewater rivers, early season, rusty skills, cold water, long way from home, I love the vertige over the viper. With viper style canoes, you need to be on your game all the time or you will catch an edge and find yourself playing in stuff. With the friendly vertige style canoes, it is much more forgiving, relaxing, as well as more versatile for less full-on whitewater rivers.
I have both a viper and the vertige and I have tripped with Dan Flath and used both canoes on the likes of the dog, puk, cascade, etc. I'm also a light guy at 135 pounds and pack lighter than heavier but not ultra light. I've done trips up to half a dozen nights.
Think about the rivers and the amount of flatwater.
Try out boats.
I love my viper but on spring wilderness whitewater rivers, early season, rusty skills, cold water, long way from home, I love the vertige over the viper. With viper style canoes, you need to be on your game all the time or you will catch an edge and find yourself playing in stuff. With the friendly vertige style canoes, it is much more forgiving, relaxing, as well as more versatile for less full-on whitewater rivers.
Brian
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http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow, some fantastic responses here. Much Appreciated.
After reading these, I would venture to guess that a more stable boat would indeed be the way to start out. Eventually, should I get to that level, a small playboat could possibly be added to the quiver.
I plan to start my paddling ventures near Truckee, CA. I imagine I'll start out building skills on the Boca to Floriston run on the Truckee river (just a day trip). I would love to already have overnight routes lined up, but I'm not yet familiar enough with the rivers. I've messed around on remote sections of the Yuba, but only on inflatables.
Perhaps I should compile a list of acceptable boats, and then scour for used deals (sadly, economical considerations trump almost every other concern):
Esquif Nitro
Esquif Vertige
Mohawk Probe 12
Of these three, is one held generally in a higher regard? Durability? Stability?
What else should I consider (or would you steer clear of one of the above three?)
All things considered, I'll have to paddle some boats before I make my decision, unless a heck of a deal comes my way. I'm all ears for canoeists in/around Truckee (or way down in Santa Barbara). I'm looking for a good forum in the CA area (boof.com?), that had a decent canoe community.
Thanks guys!
After reading these, I would venture to guess that a more stable boat would indeed be the way to start out. Eventually, should I get to that level, a small playboat could possibly be added to the quiver.
I plan to start my paddling ventures near Truckee, CA. I imagine I'll start out building skills on the Boca to Floriston run on the Truckee river (just a day trip). I would love to already have overnight routes lined up, but I'm not yet familiar enough with the rivers. I've messed around on remote sections of the Yuba, but only on inflatables.
Perhaps I should compile a list of acceptable boats, and then scour for used deals (sadly, economical considerations trump almost every other concern):
Esquif Nitro
Esquif Vertige
Mohawk Probe 12
Of these three, is one held generally in a higher regard? Durability? Stability?
What else should I consider (or would you steer clear of one of the above three?)
All things considered, I'll have to paddle some boats before I make my decision, unless a heck of a deal comes my way. I'm all ears for canoeists in/around Truckee (or way down in Santa Barbara). I'm looking for a good forum in the CA area (boof.com?), that had a decent canoe community.
Thanks guys!
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Paddle Power
- C Maven
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A good list. Might also look for a used and cheap rival (dagger) or raven (esquif) or outrage (mad river) or Prodigy X (bell)
Brian
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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There is a Dagger Rival in Los Angeles now. I know that's a long, long way from Truckee, but the Rival is a heck of a boat. Here's the ad from www.paddling.net -- (CA) 1995 Dagger Rival ww/canoe,lightweight royalex, solo saddle & straps, airbags & netting, good shape, kept hanging in garage, asking $375.00 must p/u Los Angeles Calif. -- Submitted by: greatskier
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Larry Horne
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I know this is an old thread at this point but I'll add my two bits also.
When you talk about whitewater tripping it helps to define what you are talking about. If you are looking at class II and class III whitewater then you may want to consider an even larger canoe.
I am 5'8" also and I use a 15 Nova Craft prospector with solo whitewater outfitting for multi day trips on class II and III. It is large for very technical class III but it is dry and stable and has lots of room. In addition, it can be paddled tandem, and is much faster on flat water than some of the shorter whitewater boats. There are other boats that are more "downriver" type designs like the nova craft supernava or the wenonah Rendezvous also.
None of these boats will play as well as t he smaller whitewater boats but then there are a lot of different boat designs out there for a reason.
When you talk about whitewater tripping it helps to define what you are talking about. If you are looking at class II and class III whitewater then you may want to consider an even larger canoe.
I am 5'8" also and I use a 15 Nova Craft prospector with solo whitewater outfitting for multi day trips on class II and III. It is large for very technical class III but it is dry and stable and has lots of room. In addition, it can be paddled tandem, and is much faster on flat water than some of the shorter whitewater boats. There are other boats that are more "downriver" type designs like the nova craft supernava or the wenonah Rendezvous also.
None of these boats will play as well as t he smaller whitewater boats but then there are a lot of different boat designs out there for a reason.