Rolling questions

[Mikey B]

Cone Bone,
I think having a familiar starting point is a good thing. If nothing else, like you said, you'd know for sure you'd roll up that way...so for the mental end of things it would be a big plus.

Larry, the few blown attempts I had on the river, I thought it'd be faster to just get perpedicular and roll up, and I think it probably would've worked a few times except for my skirt popping. Hopefully that's no longer going to be an issue to contend with for me
I can see the benefits of just sweeping out and rolling up without tucking under and setting up in certain circumstances.

As for offside rolls, quite obviously I'm no authority on technique. Are you referring to going over on your offside and setting up and rolling up on your onside or rolling up on your offside?
I've only been rolling about a year, and taught myself in my kids 15' x 3' swimming pool (which worked great) last year after dislocating my left shoulder and not being able to paddle most of last summer.
I tried rolling up on my offside two ways. It's a bit awkward on your torso keeping your normal grip hand/shaft hand placement but isn't bad after a few tries. You do you roll exactly like your normal low brace roll except when you roll up ( I'm not sure how to descibe it ) your paddle is in like a cross forward stroke kinda feel as so makes sweeping your nose across the rails feel really awkward and you might feel a bit unsettled if you aren't used to it.
I also tried switching my hands on the paddle and doing it like normal. That didn't seem bad either. The biggest problem I personally have is that I practiced so much rolling on my onside that it was hard for me to adjust my "hipsnap" to pulling and pushing with the opposite legs on the offside roll. I definitely need lots of practice. I haven't tried it in the C-1 yet.
One thing that helped my hipsnap greatly was practicing rolling up without my paddle, just a hand roll...you can't cheat and use your arms.
Maybe someone could shoot a clip of themselves rolling up on their offside (C-1 Deli had those nice clips of rolling before)...
Mikey B

[Larry Horne]

Cone Bone and Mike,
i do agree that the setup has it's time and place. i just beleive it is unnecessary most of the time. it is just as easy to get to the perp. position as it is to get to the "set-up" position, many times you are already there if you go over to your on side.
i'm not a paddler who hates to get his head wet, i play a lot and have flipped a gazilion times. but i do not like running rapids upside down so i try to make my rolls lightning fast and bomb proof.
i would call the textbook set-up position the position you go to if you like to run rapids upside down. o.k. so i'm opinionated and stubborn. please don't hate me!
now i'm asking for help
the roll i want to learn, if there is one, would be a cross bow roll i guess. not switching hands.
say you're in a hole off-side, you're trying to get to the other end of the hole with a cross forward stroke/brace and you fall over downsteam. i would like to be able to just come back up without flailing around upside down till i flush out . i 'm thinking the best thing is to forget the paddle and do a hand roll with my t-grip hand, but it seems like that would only work in nice holes with a big pile. the hole in this scenerio is in the middle of a class 5, not your favorite play spot.
any advice?

[ohc1]

Larry-
I know folks have talked about having various levels of success with the roll you're talking about (cross-bow high brace). It's definitely possible, but I've heard that it puts a lot of stress on your shoulder in such a way that there's a high risk of injury or even dislocation. So I think of it more as a pool/flatwater "trick". If you haven't already, check out Mason & Scriver's book "Thrill of the Paddle". There's a discussion in there about the scenario you're presenting and the pros/cons of the different ways to roll up (e.g., cross-bow high brace roll, 1-handed offside role, switching paddle sides).
-Kevin

[Cone Bone]

Larry,

If you paddle class v holes, you are entitled to whatever opions that you may have! No offense taken, I can use the advice.

I'm still pretty green, and my shoulder loves to hurt. It tends to be sore after a hard day on the river - that's class III for me. So I go out of my way to protect it.

Maybe in the long run I will evolve to a more direct rolling style - in truth I often do skip the setup right now. But when I am getting spanked, that's where I go to regroup and roll up.

[Larry Horne]

Cone Bone,
That was a hypothetical Class 5. I'm not a class 5 boater and i try to avoid class 5 holes. That stuff scares me
But i'll run it if Bruce goes first!

[Jan_dettmer]

Larry,

you can either low brace roll or high-brace roll on your off-side.
I don't like the h-b roll since it puts too much stress on my shoulder.

The low brace roll:
I learned it in the pool and it took me longer to learn it than the on-side thing.
To learn, it is good to start with a set up position (although I agree with the stuff you said about combat roll setup and being as fast as possible).
sweep out to the opposite side you normally sweep out (on side when your up side down). When you swept out, rotate your face so it facec downwards.
Now, your grip hand elbow is almost behind your back and your shafthand restst against your fore head. Now the hip snap comes into play. Snap your hip and start sweeping forward. You end up with your paddle parallel to the boat and pointing forward. Now you switch to the power side and pull off one of those bomber cross forwads that stabilizes the boat.

It works quite well but I am not bombproof on the river yet. When i learned my onside roll, it was in an eddy of some river and it was there instantly, combat ready. With the off-side it seems harder.
Some peoplae say you don't need it. But then good Kayakers can always roll both sides and use it quite often. I had a swim once because I was stuck against a head wall on my on-side. I'm sure I could have rolled.
In a hole, I spin around most of the times. Or, I do a high-brace roll because the hole helps you to get up-right. It is quite easy.
However, if you are stuck in a class 5 hole (i am not sure what that really means), it might be time for a swim and save as much energy as possible. Because most people would thing you don't get out of a class 5 hole in you boat
Hope that helps.

On the river, Jan

[Larry Horne]

Thanks Jan, i'll give that a try.
and no, the RAPID is class 5. the HOLE is in the middle of the rapid, between you and the line that you need to get to on the other side of the river. you guys need to get my scenario straight
thanks

[aldenb]

hey larry,
wow, a class V rapid with a mandatory off-side surf? I think there's only one reliable bit of advice I can offer:

PORTAGE!



take care,
Alden

[MarkZ]

Mike,

A couple other thoughts.... while you are getting comfortable with your C1 roll, it may be best to stick to one roll - your onside roll - to practice until it's bombproof in all situations. Specialty rolls like the offside roll and the backdeck roll have their place, but will only be used rarely if ever.
One of the disorienting things about C1 compared to open boat rolls is that on smaller boats there is often a vertical (front to back) component when you fall over. An example would be falling over while squirting. This just never happens in an open boat.
I started out in an open boat and was comfortable rolling it in up to class 3 water. My first C1 was a Gyramax, so I learned my C1 roll in a boat that still had lots of front to back (vertical) stability. When I went to my amp I found that my bow would dive and my stern would dive when I didn't expect it. This challenged my setup for some time, but after a short time the setup was stronger than ever.
There is no substitute for moving water practice. Go down to a fast, deep class 2 section with haystacks and do things that you know will flip you over. If all it takes is ferries, great. If it takes squirts, you can do that too. The more true, unexpected combat rolls you do, the better your ultimate sense of underwater orientation will be. Stick with an onside roll for 6 months before you even think of goofing around with other variations. As you get better, do more maneuvers that you know will throw you into weird unpredictable situations - like squirts, spins and bow stalls. Trust your body to figure out what it takes. Be patient under water. Kayakers are often taught to wait 3 seconds under water in moving current to allow their boats to catch up to the speed of the water. This allows them more stability. The boat eventually stops spinning and the paddle eventually stops diving if you just wait a bit.
I don't think it matters whether you do a traditional set-up with the blade out front or whether you skip that and sweep straight out to the side at 90 degrees. There are great rollers who do it both ways. Also, you may want to try a facemask for a day or two to see where you really are in relation to the boat. After a while, however, your body will know by feel where you are.

Good luck

[Mikey B]

Mark,
Thanks for the advice. You're right on about the vertical component , it's definitely an added challenge.
Presently I'm just waiting for my skirt from Mt. Surf. They were really helpful folks (esp. John Mason)...I'd highly recommend them like many others on this board.

Now if I could only get more time off from work to get in some much needed paddling!!!

Thanks,
Mikey B