PFD suggestions....

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars »

TonyB wrote:Dont Like the Greenvest. Dont think it floats enough and it's got to many doo-dads that arnt really worth it.
I do like the out of the way pockets, need other vests to start doing that.
70N (7KG or 16lbs) is pretty much industry standard (and 2kg or 4.5lb more than the requirement for certification as a type V vest); which to me raises the questions: How heavy are you, and what on earth do you expect to be doing when you swim.

I'll be honest, I think that hi-float vests are actually a bad idea for anyone other than an inexperienced raft clients on big water trips; they're also very US-centric, I'm yet to meet someone from outside of North America who a) uses one b) thinks they're a good idea; even paddling on truely collosal whitewater.

I'm also highly wary of MTI; they've been making PFD's for 20 years according to them, but the innovations of the past 6 or so years (foam moulded to the *actual* shape of the body, low riding PFD's that put the buoyancy in clever places rather than two or three slabs, and any kind of low profile cut whatsoever) have all passed them by; combined with their overlarge and ungainly range of products, it really doesn't make me think they're a quality marque, so much as a fading star.

Edit: I re-read that and realised that it's a little "robust"; Please don't think of that as an attack on you, so much as a [fairly tactless] request for you to explain your thinking on the subject.
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Post by Shep »

I, too, would like more flotation in my lifejacket. I am a skinny punk and who does not float. I would much prefer another 2-4 pounds in my lifejacket.

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Post by TonyB »

TheKrikkitWars wrote: which to me raises the questions: How heavy are you, and what on earth do you expect to be doing when you swim..
IF you only knew!
TheKrikkitWars wrote: I'm also highly wary of MTI; they've been making PFD's for 20 years according to them, but the innovations of the past 6 or so years (foam moulded to the *actual* shape of the body, low riding PFD's that put the buoyancy in clever places rather than two or three slabs, and any kind of low profile cut whatsoever) have all passed them by; combined with their overlarge and ungainly range of products, it really doesn't make me think they're a quality marque, so much as a fading star.
Hey! we always need a "if it aint broke" option out there. MTI makes a desent product at about half what people are payin for them green vestsss. Low profile is well and good but some of them chaif my nipples. And people come inall shapes.

I'm also highly wary of a company that rereleases the same vest in red, white and blue so they can hike the price up even higher. Not to mention the origonal "green vest" was black. Real visible on the water.

Im not sayin MTI are the "end all" but, the simple fact it helps cover up my manly mammarys in the summertime, should have you people thankin them profusely. As far as inovations, I've seen green vest quick releases not fully disingage during live bait excersizes.
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Edit: I re-read that and realised that it's a little "robust"; Please don't think of that as an attack on you, so much as a [fairly tactless] request for you to explain your thinking on the subject.
Yea Yea, does this Vest make me look fat?

I look for a vest that helps keep my face up out of the water when swimmin thru a hole.
Im around 230 lbs and I've swam to the bottom of a 12 ft deep pool wearing a green vest.
Im glad it makes the minimal specs.
I know it'll float my body but I want that extra inch or two higher so I can breath better.


Did I mention, I dont like the Green Vest?
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Post by Lappie »

I have the green vest, and at 230lbs found it float me well... could be beter... but good!! Like the way it fit and the way it is made! That said, I don't like the knife "patch", if you have a knife that is realy well secure to its sheet, it is hard to take out with out the poket to open....
If I had the cash, I would certainly get the Hydroscape, Yukon have one of the first generation, and it sure look great!
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Post by philcanoe »

TheKrikkitWars wrote: I'll be honest, I think that hi-float vests are actually a bad idea for anyone other than an inexperienced raft clients on big water trips; they're also very US-centric, I'm yet to meet someone from outside of North America who a) uses one b) thinks they're a good idea; even paddling on truely collosal whitewater.
well - good for you

however you're not the only open boater to have paddled colossal whitewater :wink: in my experience European paddlers are not better (or know more) than North American :o so have you ever tried swimming in a higher float jacket :roll: or even considered that not all higher buoyancy jackets are the same, just like all regular ones are different :-? not to question your ability, just that post


which lead me back to wondering ??? if there's some sponsorship issue going here... (:) can't help but wonder)
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    Post by TheKrikkitWars »

    philcanoe wrote:
    TheKrikkitWars wrote: I'll be honest, I think that hi-float vests are actually a bad idea for anyone other than an inexperienced raft clients on big water trips; they're also very US-centric, I'm yet to meet someone from outside of North America who a) uses one b) thinks they're a good idea; even paddling on truely collosal whitewater.
    well - good for you

    however you're not the only open boater to have paddled colossal whitewater :wink: in my experience European paddlers are not better (or know more) than North American :o so have you ever tried swimming in a higher float jacket :roll: or even considered that not all higher buoyancy jackets are the same, just like all regular ones are different :-? not to question your ability, just that post


    which lead me back to wondering ??? if there's some sponsorship issue going here... (:) can't help but wonder)
    I'm not sponsored by astral (or anyone else come to it) and I have used high-float jackets.

    I don't believe any nation of paddlers (be that the Kiwis, the crazy african dudes, the deathwish former soviets, the europeans, the british, or even the few aussies close enough to whitwater to paddle) to be better than any other (the germans and russians do seem a little bit more game/insane though)...

    I do however see that several paddling cultures have things which are ingrained into them yet remain unheard of/highly unpopular elsewhere... But only an outsider would bother to question them, or point out that they had an odd geographic range...

    We don't move forwards without asking questions now, do we?
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    Post by PAC »

    I can see ...in some cases.... like very sticky holes, or recirc'ing at the base of a larger drop, etc. …having a high float might create some issued in terms of retention... and a bad out of boat experience (BOBE).

    But on the flip side having a low float in large pushy water can be a very undesirable situation as well.

    One of the reasons I started looking for a replacement....was that on a local class II-III river - I flipped, I swam and then had a minor BOBE. While still holding onto the OC (it being in upside down mode) I came across a fairly strong cross seam (below the surface) that decided that I needed some “out of boat” DT.

    Even on this easy section of river, with lots of fellow boaters with me (most of them thoroughly enjoying my situation I might add), and having experience some planned DT... I didn't enjoy the unplanned experience (or when the seam attempted a double suck too).

    If it has been on something more continuous in nature, higher flow, etc. I would not have been a happy swimming boater. The pfd I was in was not keeping me neutral even in the flat water... so proofed out that it’s time to buy new.

    I do have a higher floatation vest too... but usually just wear when pushing rubber. I’m just not as physically comfortable in it when paddling C or OC. Not sure how the BOBE would have played out if I was wearing it… but really don’t care… I just know I need a new pfd!

    On a side note I remember reading somewhere (can find it now) that pfd’s lose roughly 5% of their flotation value the first year and / or second year and then lose a % going forward. Anyone have any details on that?

    The logic here is … do I cut up and dispose of the old pfd or does it work well enough for someone lighter that I can use for taking someone out in the raft. I do know how to do the floatation test (put it on and see how floats you) but just wondering if there are some rules of thumb as to age (like with climbing ropes)?

    Thanks!
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    Post by OC1er »

    Keep in mind if you're still thinking of the Xtract that there is a known design defect. There is a short piece of 2" webbing stitched into the harness on the back, this piece of webbing has a tri bar on one end and a plastic d ring on the other end that the main strap passes through. The point was to keep your ring centered, but the stock ring is big enough to pass over the tri bar or the d ring. If that were to happen you would not be able to quick release! You'd pull the buckle and nothing would happen because the weight would be off the main belt and on the short piece of 2" webbing, locked on by the d ring or tri bar. Stohlquist wouldn't acknowledge it when I contacted them but there are posts on the issue out there. I cut out the 2" webbing and just let the ring ride free on the strap. Didn't really like the vest besides all that though. Pocket sucks, vest rides too high...
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    Post by TonyB »

    PAC, I remember while back while first being introduced to paddling, I came a cross an old timer that would collect peoples old PFD's and weight test them in a pool. He then would right the Weight boyancy (or what ever you would call it) on it and give them to beginners.

    I'd be hesitant to do that, reason being if anything would to happen while they were wearing a "defective" jacket and you were the one who gave it to them???

    Id say at most keep it for lake trips or training. but keep it a way from greenies and children.

    would it be agood vest for squirting?
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    Post by the great gonzo »

    I don't think that the Green Jacket lacks floatation. I have personally tested the floatation of the Astral Green in the last week on more than one occasions (guiding rafts on the Ottawa at high water through buseater, hoping that the window does not close on you does that to you... :o :lol: ) and have so far found that the Green vest gets me to the top on problem. I also notticed that the latest generation of green jackets are significantly lighter than the first generation ones.

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    Post by TheKrikkitWars »

    I've just had a bit of a conflab with some people who either own a green jacket or tried it but didn't get on with it; the consensus seemed to be:
    Because of the bottom-adjust system, they encompass a smaller possible range of torso-lengths for any given torso-girth (the measurement by which they're sized); so if you have a shorter/longer torso than might be expected for your chest size (say a quite short but very stocky person or a tall skinny person) you can't make it fit right.
    I'll retreat to my gear-cave now...
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    Post by PAC »

    would it be agood vest for squirting?
    Nah - floatation is still there.
    Quote:
    Because of the bottom-adjust system, they encompass a smaller possible range of torso-lengths for any given torso-girth (the measurement by which they're sized); so if you have a shorter/longer torso than might be expected for your chest size (say a quite short but very stocky person or a tall skinny person) you can't make it fit right.
    Have to agree with this too... no one size fits everyone! Same with boats, paddles and helmets too!
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    Post by PAC »

    Quick update on the pfd purchase… I picked up the new model green online. It fits well and my only issue with it is that you have to pull it over your head… could be an issue when wearing lots of winter clothing, or if emergency response folks have to get to your chest quickly. Otherwise comfortable and functional!
    Anyway after getting it Thursday I did a quick review of “how to use” it.
    Saturday comes and I’m part of the local club’s canoe clinic, more by default than anything else, since the usual leaders have other plans. The class is working on an easy section of a class II, at low flow, banging micro eddies and working on stroke technique. I’m just assisting in making things happen as we move on down the river.
    Half way down I set up safety at one of the more “difficult” rapids, with a salamander waist throw rope belt, more just standing there to provide feedback, than being a proactive safety. As luck would have it another open boater (Brian) stops for some photo ops… one rock away.
    Things are clear with the first boat going through without issue. The second boat is bringing it on and looking good, until she catches an edge on a small submerged rock… flips and swims…. As she starts to actively self rescue, we stopped traffic and I toss the belt rope to her… and miss… (an easy toss with me just getting the rope close.. if she needs it). As she continues to swim I re-toss just missing her again.
    Suddenly she stops dead in the flow by a rock with water pillowing up on it. Things are getting ugly – I re-throw the rope again and she can’t grab it as she is working hard now to stay above the surface… I’m thinking foot entrapment.
    As I focus now on the re-throw, I hear her yell “…I’m on a log”… and this time the rope hits her directly, she grabs it and I go to pull … But I slip losing my footing (a typical - Slippery Rock Creek “O” moment). But then Brain, the camera boater was paying attention, and has reached out across the gap grabbing the back strap of the safety vest. One really hard pull, and the swimmer is off the log and we pull her in. Her gut hurts and is a tad shaken up but otherwise okay.
    Brian and I look closely and the log is 3 to 4 inches in diameter, sticking out only 4 to 5 feet into the flow (she got stuck on the very end of it) and it is solidly stuck in place, barely visible one foot below the surface… you really have look to see even the tip of it. Later after everyone else is through the section safely I go over and try to pull the log out and find it is firmly stuck in there.
    Video from Brian….
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtP7m3ByHeU
    Lessons learned:
    1. Have gear in good working order and read up on how to use it in advance.
    2. Have a throw rope handy, know how to use it, and make sure others do too….
    3. Don’t take any situation too lightly... “IT” can happen quickly and at the most unsuspecting locations.
    4. Having more than one person in place for safety can make a difference.
    5. It’s really nice to have a victim who knows what to do in a swim / entrapment, stays calm and is able to communicate.
    6. Upon replaying it in my mind a lot of things could have been done better, quicker, smarter… in the heat of the moment you do what you have to, hoping you know what to do… this time it all worked out.
    Last edited by PAC on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Post by Longboatin »

    PAC definitely wid you on #s 3 & 5 on yer list. Bit of a scary situation, glad all turned out well.
    I really believe some type of river/rapid swimming experience should be included in whitewater instruction. It would go a long way in raising boaters comfort levels, when things turn really wet.
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    Post by Paddle Power »

    an excellent video and comments.
    Brian
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