Yes Eli is headed to the Yukon this summer to teach with Yukan Canoe we are vey excited to be hosting him. We are offering a solo/tandem 4-5 day class with him and then he will be in doing an Instructor course/upgrade/sharing with our Instructors. In the end everyone wins. We still have a few spots left. Direct flights from Vancouver, Edmonton,Calgary, Frankfurt and I think Zurich to Whitehorse
It is going to be really neat to share the river I learned to paddle on and have been paddling for 20 years or more on with one of the best and see what he thinks of it and see what he can do at our play spot- Club Merganser.
To up your paddling I believe in paddling more, paddling harder, trying hard moves, paddling with better paddlers, investing in a drysuit, spend more time on flatwater or easy water, work on finesse - make it look pretty and teach others to paddle as you get back to the fundamentals which never change.
but what we actually (seriously) do around here, is start'em on class three. Believe thats how it's done in Canada too. After a weekend of learning some flat-water strokes, nothing works better than going to where they'll work. We have a bunch of Class II-III water for them to remove the blinders on. Those that flail join a canoe club.
^~^~^ different strokes ~ for different folks ^~^~^
For our club newsletter and discussion on our local forum, I put together these ideas about how to improve one's paddling. Clubs see a lot of people get interested and do the class II runs, but far fewer get over that first hurdle of paddling more agressively and controlling their boats in class III, so this list is targetted at getting to that first next level.
Great list. One additional item: on flat water or easy sections, work on your stroke mechanics, practicing both on and off side carves.
h2sk1 wrote:
Great list. One additional item: on flat water or easy sections, work on your stroke mechanics, practicing both on and off side carves.
I agree. I guess I would sum this up as "Do some drills: one-stroke acceleration, On and Off-side circles, figure eights, paddling backwards, moving the boat abeam, etc..."
I am not a huge fan of flat water, but I recognize that initially paddlers progress much faster on flat water than whitewater. This is why I start all classes on flat water (even paddlers heading to creeks in the afternoon).
I know of several whitewater paddlers that utilize a form that is dangerous (canoers shouldn't be risking their shoulders like their kayaking brethren) and I find it fool-hardy to brag about pushing incompetence.
Although there are some paddlers that can start on class III, many more give it up altogether because of a horrible early experience.
I question the mentality that because you swim when you are above your limits, that you know how to swim in whitewater.
I wanted an ALFest shirt this year, but am personally unwilling to promote foot entrapments even in jest.
Perhaps I take safety a bit too seriously at this point in my life, but when I think of the paddlers that I have known that have quit paddling after a near miss or that lost their lives pushing the envelope, I am content to start my friends on the flat water and progress from class I to II (to V...)
Ok...I now feel like an old man posting...so I am heading back out to the wave...
Yeah Phil, in the full artcile I mention alternatives to this class-III-lines-on-class-II-runs approach - like the FullGnarlz School of Hard Rocks. But the target audience for this discussion is beginners, mostly in a club setting.
The reason this article was written was because newish paddlers were expressing interest in trying harder runs, but the fact is they need to paddle harder on the runs they're doing now. In my view, until a beginner demonstrates that they're making good use of their current runs, there's not much point in taking them to a harder run. The folks I'm thinking of would not have a good experience on the class IIIs I'm thinking of, and Phil, I guarantee you wouldn't have any fun taking them there!
On a case-by-case basis, especially if you have some background on a person, taking some people to start on class III might work great for them, but I don't think it's the most successful way for the masses, and clubs and instructors aren't likely to endorse it as the default way for beginners to improve.
It also depends a lot on the rivers you have to work with. Sometimes I think the bar of what I call class III may be relatively high, but regardless of that, even the class II rivers here are continuous and ice-cold, so swims aren't a pleasant experience. So, maybe that's how they do it in the warm-water part of Canada, but not in the mountains. On the brighside, the class IIs I'm thinking of aren't lazy drifts with the odd V, they are pretty continuous and action-packed boulder gardens, entertaining even for better paddlers.
But if somebody is lucky enough to be learning in a place with warm water and pool-and-drop rivers, that's probably good reason for a different perspective on whether class III can be a good place for beginners to learn.
Eli, so sorry that we weren't able to get you out to BC last year. Aside from this beginner issue, we've also got a number of class III boaters who are in the same boat - trying to get to the next level. But we don't have many mentors or people to follow.
And for the record, before I jump into a committing class IV run, I want to feel OK that I'm hitting the creative, exciting lines on the class IIIs. And when I go on a class IV, I'll want to get out and scout if I want to get out scout, I won't want to be in rush to keep up with the leader.
time on the river doesn't necessarily equate to improvement
When you wrote about the low brace, I prefer Eli's tagline,
When in Doubt...Paddle Forward!
Before progress up river or rapid classes, a paddler should be able to go anywhere and everywhere in a rapid. Then s/he is ready to move up one class.
Starting in class III may work for some, but not for all. In fact may work against developing good fundamental skills. Sounds more like a fun crash and burn weekend experience than a life long hook on the wonders and amazements of canoeing.
Thanks again for starting this worthwhile discussion.
PS please pass on looking great to the newsletter team.
I think one of the most important aspects of progression is knowing where you want to go with your paddling, and push it accordingly.
To back up the flatwater mentality, I find that when time is spent on flatwater, a beginner will better retain their strokes and form when they hit moving water, and then move on to rapids.
As far as the 'fullgnarlz' school of hard knocks - Class I - III very quickly. Once you see what class III is about, you smooth it over at II and III, then rinse and repeat as you move up in class until class IX
It should also be mentioned that a good, reliable, comfortable, cross-stroke should be pursued early on(not X J). Far too many canoers are one sided paddlers and are held back because of it.
And I love the summary. It puts quite some interesting parts of paddling together. You might consider adding: get a roll. Having a reliable roll boosts confidence and gets you up to speed for a bomber-low-brace.
Secondly, in my personal experience it's good to go over the limit from time to time, to improve your skills. What I mean is, as an intermediate class II paddle, I did hit some class III+/IV on an artificial slalom course. Artificial, so still relatively safe. But it changed my idea on pushy and hard. One way or another paddling outside the comfort or even pushy range, it improved my paddling in the comfort range. But important here is:
- do you have the mentality to handle it?
- is your swimming good enough?
And I think that scenario is only good for class II paddlers. You don't want a novice paddler on class I hitting a II+ since he probably won't know how to swim. Neither you want to be pushing your skills over on a class IV or V run...
And flatwater is actually cool, but you have to be creative pushing the limits there. Try like high speed carving over a longer distance, switching carve every half turn. That comes close -power wise- to running a rapid. Add a factor time to it, and technique might drop a bit since you're focusing on a good time.
And there are lots of river skills you can start training or improve on flatwater. (I've gathered and composed some flatwater drills with minimal amount of gear: http://www.open-canoe.be/index.php/trai ... ter-drills, feel free to get inspired by them)
I'd agree with every point you've put up on that (in fact can I borrow it to give to the freshers in my Uni Canoe Club?)
However you're missing learn to roll, which is *the* essentiall skill for progressing your skills: it's not so scary to try a more difficult move if you know you won't swim if you don't pull it off.
I'm with Gnarlz about the cross stroke for canoeists too; I learned mine because I was emulating other good open boaters and it *actually helped*. My assumption is that coaching canoeists is a very rare bird, so it's something that can be tacked on as needed.
I'm not with gnarls about learning on flatwater though... Much better to practice whole skills with an outcomes based focus, than to practice strokes and drills in an enviroment divorced from the reality of their usage.
I'd opt for using gently moving water over flatwater every time.
(Depending on what you're doing either a strong, narrow jet of water with small riffles, good eddies and well defined eddylines either side or a short stretch of wider slow flowing river, preferably one that meanders enough to make it a short walk back up after a relatively long paddle are ideal venues).
philcanoe wrote:Not to sound too flippant (sic)....
but what we actually (seriously) do around here, is start'em on class three. Believe thats how it's done in Canada too. After a weekend of learning some flat-water strokes, nothing works better than going to where they'll work. We have a bunch of Class II-III water for them to remove the blinders on. Those that flail join a canoe club.
That's very common for the uni scene in the UK, and it definately works; but also definately scares the large steaming pile of dog doo out of previously enthusiastic people who never come back.
For us that's actually kinda a good thing as we can't teach a 100+ paddlers each year; So weeding out the ones who don't want to fall in, swim through some splashy stuff and get hoiked out of the water by a small flottilla of hungover people in smelly polypro's is ultimately the best way to thin them out.
For clubs that are bigger and able to be more flexible, or which want to be more inclusive I don't know that it would be a good thing.
(I learned as a variation on this theme, I learned to roll in a pool over the winter, and did one slalom before going "I want to paddle a river" and getting on a very fast narrow class 3 with some better paddlers. It was cold, I did lots of head-ruddering, and it hurt a little; but ultimately within a half dozen runs I was comforable on class 3)
Wow, that ended up being quite the tour-de-force/horrific "Wall Of Text"!
Last edited by TheKrikkitWars on Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
No suggestions for the article. It looks good to me.
Here are some suggestions for runs. Look for pool drop class III's with an emphasis on the phrase drop. The N Fk. Nooksack Canyon run (Douglas Fir Campground to Glacier) is a perfect example. It has short drops that are easy class III, with good shore access for swimmers, a narrow river channel that is easy for swimmers to swim in, and recovery stretches between the drops.
Also look for long individual class II+/III- drops. Fishermans and Proctor Creek Rapids on the Big Eddy section of the Skykomish, and the canyon on the lower S Fk Snoqualmie River are good examples of runs that your club could possibly visit.
My perspective on the "throw them in class III" suggestion - when I was a strong class II paddler I went to the Ocoee (III, III+?) and realized I was in over my head - pulled off at Broken Nose after pinning and almost wrapping twice in Gonzo Shoals alone. What did I learn? To go back home and step it up. Came back the next summer much more prepared, much more comfortable, and being led down by an excellent open boater (*) - awesome day. So, class III can be a great motivator, even if you don't make it all the way down the river... A pool and drop run (say, Chattooga III) might have been a better step up for me that day.
+1 on finding a better boater to watch. That first "real" time down the Ocoee Don Spangler, I think - it's been a while. Watching him effortlessly move his boat down river and into every eddy made me ask "why use 5 strokes (me) when you can use 1 (Don)?" Had the pleasure of paddling some with Dale Johnson, too - smooth.
+1 on paddling upstream - paddling upstream, even in just flat current, makes you learn you strokes and be efficient
+1 on learning to roll - why do kayakers learn it right out of the gate and canoeists "sometimes" get around to it? It's a *big* confidence booster and can take you from paddling defensively to paddling aggressively. Why can't we make this "normal" for open boaters? Get those kayakers used to seeing OC-1s at the winter pool sessions...
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
However you're missing learn to roll, which is *the* essentiall skill for progressing your skills: it's not so scary to try a more difficult move if you know you won't swim if you don't pull it off.
Bingo! We have a winner!
paddling whitwater with just one blade is pretty stupid, but doing it without a roll is wiener stupid.
I can see where phil is coming from..I only have experience with one tiny little canoe club, and if I had stayed with them, I would have never advanced. They just over analize everything. All the politics and logistics.. trip leaders on a power trip.. 20 minutes scouting class II riffles..blah, blah, blah. It was great for getting my foot in the door, but once I met a small crew of kayakers and forgot the canoe club, things became much more enjoyable.
That said, if someone threw me onto our standard class 3 run after just one weekend, i think I would have been scared off. I spent a long while working on class II, and moved up (still) at my own pace.
We here at Cboats are boating snobs, the aficionados, the folks that do this every chance we get. People that can possibly become too jaded in their very introspection of themselves and of their sport. Focus so finely, as to not see the world as it really exist. We go and go and go. It's common to see someone say, this is my 60th-90th-more day this year. Or quip, I've boated 7 out the last 14 days. Such is N-O-T the case for most people, who furthermore are not even interested in going that much. Sure it would be fun, or so it's seems to us. They may go one weekend or two a month. They may boat during the season, or maybe in warm weather a bit more. Their number of trips interspersed with other activities. They may have young children, or work on weekends, maybe the money will not allow. For whatever the reason, their biggest impedance is their frequency.
If going to publish anything about increasing proficiency (as opposed to an intro to padding course) - the top three things I'd include...
... is simply to go, this is best thing anyone can do to improve. The more you go, the better you will become. When I was in a club, it was common for people to ask how to get better. And I'd tell them to make our week of rivers trip, with nine days of boating. Let's look at the normal once every three week boater, the boater who perhaps goes on 4 weekend trips in two months. He spends half the time, getting reacquainted with his boat on Saturday. Get's to feeling like him-her-self after a little while (if lucky), and then finally get's down to some hard boating and the learning of new skills. So now it's Sunday... and the chance to build and use our new skills, to add to the repertoire. So if the muscles or not too sore, he may get in another good day. Chances are he's too sore, or stayed up late, or has to get on the road early. So by simply going on an extended trip, even a four-day extravaganza. The new boater will get a chance to build new technique, upon technique, an grow exponentially. That's like 4 weekend trips worth of learning, or if going for nine - a whole summer's worth. While the instructor may be great, the course par-excellence, and the outdoor center first rate, quite possibly the biggest reason in actual improvement was made by the student simply just going. Yes, instruction varies. And I readily admit to and endorse paid instruction.
The second biggest thing someone wanting to increase their ability can do, is to do whatever they want to do. So if it's paddle class three, then class III it should be. The 12 step first-posting even alludes to this. For the writer says, look for the harder lines in the class II, make the hard move, catch the hardest eddy... Recognition is good, but only a part of what's required. If you want to shoot a bighorn, you got to not only know what it looks like, but go where it lives. If you want to build a backyard deck, you have to know more than what one is. Until you actually step foot into a football-rugby-soccer game, you may never know what it's like to be laid-out-flat on your back. Until you step onto the ice, you'll never learn how to not fall. Yes you may have fallen, or gotten knocked down, shot a gun, or swung a hammer, but the similarity to the event only becomes real when done. Nothing works as well as the see-feel-taste of a real rapid. Yes - the student should be prepared. And Yes - some progress faster than others. Much like SBROAM related, I went to a Class III (the Ocoee) the month after my canoe class...An eye opener...Was the next summer before returning, but I was ready. For it had become up-close and personal, the realm of conjecture was gone. For I found out what was required, what I didn't know, what worked, and what didn't work. So I'm not saying to only paddle class three. If Class III is what your want (or Class IV or V) then you own it to yourself to spend time doing it. Else you're just a class II boater want-ta-bee hoping to one day get good enough to go. (Please remember this was a, 'how to get better' -thread - and not a 'how to teach beginners' thread when it started. I assumed the original-post (from the title) was dealing with people who had some working knowledge of a ferry, an eddy, a brace, and how to simply get down a river)
The third thing is to only take instruction from someone who can actually perform what you desire. This is not the time and place for the theoretical, to accept the 'I've been told' or 'in instructors work shop we did it like this'. You wouldn't accept it from a hanging gliding or scuba diving instructor, but it's become all to common in canoeing. While it's real easy to follow someone down a river. You really want to learn technique from the best possible boater available. While some people will rise above on their own, the majority of people will suffer from a Class II paddling instructor. Their point of reference will be too small, their (inferior) technique will be emulated, and their grasp of what can be done too limited. I bring up point of reference, because they'll only be able to teach the limited amount they know (one method)... while what the student is doing (although different) may just need some simple modification. You may even hear things like, this a real class III, when in fact it really wasn't. Good instruction is less about recreating the instructor, and more about making the most of what's at hand. A very good instructor told me once, that he see's group after group were everyone is emulating the same style as the alpha-boater in the group. That his form became emulated and reinforced, en lieu of something which might be better. I swap hands and cross stroke - should you?
^~^~^ different strokes ~ for different folks ^~^~^
Point taken - stepping up to get a taste of the next class is for sure a good thing when you're ready. But first you need to prove - to yourself and your partners - that you are at least working a bit at being ready. That was the goal of the article - to educate new keeners on what they should be doing before they come on a harder run.
And rolling and cross strokes are important too, but I left out those details for this audience. If they were to ask how to get a good low brace though, they'd be told to learn a roll.
And I think folks are right about club instruction too . . . it can be too political and too over-analyzed. People trying to emulate the instructor's technique (or take any single source of info as gospel) is often limiting. The reason for the article was to get people to think beyond instruction (club or otherwise) and figure out what they can be doing for themselves when running a river.
And yeah, making a point of paddling/practicing on back-to-back days can definitely be a big help.
P.
p.s. Those who've asked to use it, e-mail me if you want a Word copy of the full article, otherwise, you've already got the list & the discussion!
p.p.s. I wish I got out twice a month!
Last edited by yarnellboat on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
