A Little Speed Testing

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:33 pm

So, a couple of weeks ago I was offered a slightly-used Galasport Makao at a price that was quite reasonable. Since my current C1 (13 years old, and more than a bit used) was due for replacement, I jumped on the Makao deal. But that was just the beginning of this short story.

Being curious and obsessed with numbers, I did some stopwatch tests over a short closed flatwater circuit. 4 runs in each boat.

New is not always better. My old Stinger (a 30 lbs, one-off, based on a modified '91 Estanquet) was a second faster than the 22 lb Makao over a 45 second course. Ha!

In my "mature" state, I only do C/D races now, so radical turns are not necessary, although my Stinger ain't too bad at that either, since I cut down the stern. So now, I'll probably get rid of the Makao and build a new Stinger (assuming Kaz still has the mold...).

On a more boastful note, I also did some timed runs with my 33 lb Cobra OC1 13ft slalom boat. It's as fast as the Stinger! That's not too surprising, since the hull is very similar, but with sides. The bad: The Cobra is as edgy as a slalom C1, but without the ability to pivot. Great for non-squirrelly courses though.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:18 am

Is it possible that you are faster in your own boats because you have paddled them more? It can take a while with some boats to learn how to get the most out of them.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:39 am

IIRC the Makao is a full width boat... Never liked that style personally, it seems unneccesary to have such a wide boat...

If you look at the boat Martikan has designed for 2012, it's so narrow in the bow they have to use a slalom kayak cockpit rather than a c1 cockpit; and it has 1½" wings on each side making it slightly narrower than the minimum width for a K1...

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:56 am

ezwater wrote:Is it possible that you are faster in your own boats because you have paddled them more? It can take a while with some boats to learn how to get the most out of them.

Possibly. What was interesting is that I had nose-bobbing problems in the Makao, none with my old boat, in spite of the Makao's wider bow. My old boat is significantly narrower up to the cockpit. That's how I modified the original Estanguet design: Narrowed the whole boat by taking a 1/2" wedge at the front, tapering to zero at the stern, and flattened some of the bow hull's roundness. It's an attainment King.

Maybe a shorter stroke (using less forward reach) would help. But I've spent the last couple of years consciously extending my stroke.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:53 pm

I was watching your paddling style related to the J stroke, and I think you have an excellent J stroke that doesn't drag down the boat. I did not notice a lot of humping and boat bobbing. You may be correct that some designs need to be narrowed to get more hull in the water, on the length dimension, to reduce the effect of fore and aft paddler movement.

I have a very long, heavy torso, and I don't like to bob the boat, so I tend to take my 20 degree forward lean and to avoid throwing my torso forward and back much at all. But I've had trouble with some c-1s (Millbrook Wide Ride, Phoenix Seewun) where the cocpit puts my weight forward onto a narrow nose. My Zealot didn't do this. maybe because it is the only high rocker Zealot in existence.

It fascinates me that there are so many different sources of advice on how to paddle a c-1 fast, forward. It tells me something hasn't been fully analyzed yet. Jackson Kayak's naval architecht, David Knight, is a c-1 paddler, and could be the one to settle the issue.

bearboater · Post by **bearboater** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:30 am

Bob-
on flatwater I don't doubt for one second that an old regs boat won that test. The newer shorter boats won't ever be as fast, the water line is so much shorter, and has to be so much more blunt as a result of the lost width. if you did a ww test, I think you'd see the differences... Even something like the feeder with a technical course would give you enough of a discrepancy.
Who's Makao btw?

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:57 am

I spent a bit of time looking over the hull on Tyler Hinton's older Galasport C1 this weekend... and a few other boats that were lying around. After speaking with Tyler about his old boat and the new one that's on it's way it was clear to me that slalom has to an extent gotten like freestyle and creeking... certain boats will work better for certain types of courses... and how the gates are set... and can be very weight sensitive. Hopefully in the next few weeks I'll get a little saddle time in a few of them. In comparison to the types of boats that I typically paddle they're all far too light and far too fast. I over-paddle them...

BTW... Tyler was ridiculously fast and nipping on the top three K1 times all weekend.
http://www.wausauwhitewater.org/Documen ... ESULTS.pdf

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:31 pm

bearboater wrote:Bob-
on flatwater I don't doubt for one second that an old regs boat won that test. The newer shorter boats won't ever be as fast, the water line is so much shorter, and has to be so much more blunt as a result of the lost width. if you did a ww test, I think you'd see the differences... Even something like the feeder with a technical course would give you enough of a discrepancy.

My Stinger is already shortened by a foot from the original specs, rather inefficiently too, so the waterline length difference is less than you think. (I remember that the boat felt slower when I shortened the stern so much, although I didn't do any timed measurements.) Its hull is also very rough from many, many patches. I think the speed difference comes more from the hull shape: Real rails.

Who's Makao btw?

Galasport. Or do you mean "Whose Makao"?

bearboater · Post by **bearboater** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:36 pm

huh, where did you cut from? but as far as the newer slalom designs go, the makao had pretty pronounced rails. can you take a pic of them together? I'm more just curious to see. I still think that any moving/whitewater, and the result would have been reversed.

and your'e correct, I meant whose. as in from whom did you buy it. my mistake. it would seem I need more english than i've already taken...
-ids

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:51 pm

I took some pictures so that you can see the fairly radical difference between the hull designs. It's obvious (to me) that the Stinger (white boat) will tend to ride higher in the water than the Makao at speed. The rails keep the water under the hull. The violet line is the Stinger's profile superimposed on the Makao's.

Stingray · Post by **Stingray** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:01 pm

I don't know the whole situation, but the new C1s maybe faster then kayaks, (depending on course design probably).
Haily Thompson C1 times were faster then her K1 times
She won both classes, but still, thats quite the comparison.

In the past depending on the course, the kayaks were consistently the faster boats on the course.
Theres always an exception