Removing old outfitting and residue
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Removing old outfitting and residue
I though I had seen a post on this in the past but can't seem to find anything in a search so here goes. What is the best way to get old outfitting and adhesive resude off glass boats? I've been picking and sanding but didn't know if there was a solvent or something else I could use. Looks like most of the stuff I'm getting up is contact cement. Is there an easier way than what I'm doing or is picking and sanding the only way?
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Sir Adam
- CBoats.net Staff
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- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:00 am
- Location: Adirondacks, NY State, USA
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Rasp
I've used a rasp (or a sure-form sander-see the KayakOutfitting website for a picture) as a start to get most off, then a bit of acetone to clean up the residue/ rest.
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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Home Builder
Using acetone for contact glue removal in a glass boat is a distant second choice to friction (sanding) for me.
Acetone is a solvent for most resin systems used to build whitewater boats. It will seep and flow over (into?) the laminate's layers. I know nothing about chemistry, but uncontrolled contact of a solvent is just unsettling! I don't really know if the epoxy/v-ester in the laminate will be weakened or softened by contact with acetone, but I am sure it will not be made stronger.
I use very coarse sandpaper...40 grit or less. Apply elbow grease or power tools as needed. Go to an auto body supply store to buy sandpapers in bulk and a variety of grades. Norton brand is good, and usually cheaper than 3M brand.
Removing residue and cleaning up surfaces when re-outfitting is a job with few enjoyable aspects, and I don't know anyone that likes to do it. Some people just get the big pieces off, and glue over the old stuff with the new. If it is that hard to remove, just re-glue to it. It isn't going anywhere!
Since the dust you are creating is likely toxic, wear a good mask when sanding. Best idea is to get a well-fitting respirator. Use gloves or barrier creams to protect your skin.
Acetone is a solvent for most resin systems used to build whitewater boats. It will seep and flow over (into?) the laminate's layers. I know nothing about chemistry, but uncontrolled contact of a solvent is just unsettling! I don't really know if the epoxy/v-ester in the laminate will be weakened or softened by contact with acetone, but I am sure it will not be made stronger.
I use very coarse sandpaper...40 grit or less. Apply elbow grease or power tools as needed. Go to an auto body supply store to buy sandpapers in bulk and a variety of grades. Norton brand is good, and usually cheaper than 3M brand.
Removing residue and cleaning up surfaces when re-outfitting is a job with few enjoyable aspects, and I don't know anyone that likes to do it. Some people just get the big pieces off, and glue over the old stuff with the new. If it is that hard to remove, just re-glue to it. It isn't going anywhere!
Since the dust you are creating is likely toxic, wear a good mask when sanding. Best idea is to get a well-fitting respirator. Use gloves or barrier creams to protect your skin.
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home builder
[img]http://westsystem.com/ewmag/21/images/01_Better_way.jpg[/img]
This looks like a good idea to me. It is the Norton Rapid Strip Brush. It is described in a magazine article I reached from the West Epoxy System site. Click on this link to read the article:
http://westsystem.com/ewmag/indexprojects.html
Try it, and let us know how it works.
This looks like a good idea to me. It is the Norton Rapid Strip Brush. It is described in a magazine article I reached from the West Epoxy System site. Click on this link to read the article:
http://westsystem.com/ewmag/indexprojects.html
Try it, and let us know how it works.
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Home Builder
From the West Systems Epoxy website:
"Removing cured epoxy coating.
Use a heat gun to soften the epoxy (200°F). Heat a small area and use a paint or cabinet scraper to remove the bulk of the coating. Sand the surface to remove the remaining material. Provide ventilation when heating epoxy."
Yes, I know that epoxy is not the same thing as contact cement. But using a little heat from a hair dryer or heat lamp will likely help when scraping and sanding away at the dried contact cement.
Just be very careful with the heat, especially if you have been/are using acetone.
Acetone is easily ignited.
"Removing cured epoxy coating.
Use a heat gun to soften the epoxy (200°F). Heat a small area and use a paint or cabinet scraper to remove the bulk of the coating. Sand the surface to remove the remaining material. Provide ventilation when heating epoxy."
Yes, I know that epoxy is not the same thing as contact cement. But using a little heat from a hair dryer or heat lamp will likely help when scraping and sanding away at the dried contact cement.
Just be very careful with the heat, especially if you have been/are using acetone.
Acetone is easily ignited.
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Home Builder
Good question. It means I have built a few boats, plugs, and molds in a dedicated, non-commercial boat shop.
The intent of the handle was to inform/warn you that I have only a hack level knowledge about this stuff, acquired as a hobbist. No professional training or experience; sort of a "shadetree mechanic" on the subject.
And while strictly an amateur, there seems to be a dearth of professional whitewater boat builders around these days.
I don't do it anymore, either. I hope you can benefit from my past experiences messin' around among the resins and fibers.
There is nothing like paddling a boat you have built, no matter how well you do either.
The intent of the handle was to inform/warn you that I have only a hack level knowledge about this stuff, acquired as a hobbist. No professional training or experience; sort of a "shadetree mechanic" on the subject.
And while strictly an amateur, there seems to be a dearth of professional whitewater boat builders around these days.
I don't do it anymore, either. I hope you can benefit from my past experiences messin' around among the resins and fibers.
There is nothing like paddling a boat you have built, no matter how well you do either.
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Home Builder
OK. When getting involved with working around FRP boats, or even when outfitting, be aware that almost everything used is unhealthy and harmful to your body.
The dangers are to your eyes, skin, lungs, brain, liver, and probably other areas.
The problems are as minor as skin irritation and as major as blindness and death.
So, get informed about boat building safety and injury prevention. You will have to spend some time and money to protect yourself from these dangers.
Basically, you will have to own and maintain a quality respirator. You will have to wear proper protective clothing from head to toe. You will have to own a pair of chemical goggles. You will have to take precautions to avoid and fight fires in your workshop. You will have to take measures to avoid contaminating your home and family with boat building residues.
Start by reading the available literature about how and what can hurt you. John Sweet's website is a good place to start. Get data sheets for all the products you use. Read Walbridge's book on boat building. It has been a long time since he revised it, but it has plenty of information you will need. It is out of print, but search until you find a copy. Beg, borrow, or steal to get it if you have to. Those are minimum resources, but they are enough to get started.
"But I already have done some of this stuff, and I don't feel sick", you say.
That's right. Everyone does a little boat work without ill effect. Nobody does a lot without some damage. The effects are often cumulative and subtle, so take precautions early.
At least one commercial builder had to stop because of severe liver damage. And I was told by an auto paint and body supply store manager, "There are no old auto painters." Same thing applies to boat builders.
Good luck, and play safe.
The dangers are to your eyes, skin, lungs, brain, liver, and probably other areas.
The problems are as minor as skin irritation and as major as blindness and death.
So, get informed about boat building safety and injury prevention. You will have to spend some time and money to protect yourself from these dangers.
Basically, you will have to own and maintain a quality respirator. You will have to wear proper protective clothing from head to toe. You will have to own a pair of chemical goggles. You will have to take precautions to avoid and fight fires in your workshop. You will have to take measures to avoid contaminating your home and family with boat building residues.
Start by reading the available literature about how and what can hurt you. John Sweet's website is a good place to start. Get data sheets for all the products you use. Read Walbridge's book on boat building. It has been a long time since he revised it, but it has plenty of information you will need. It is out of print, but search until you find a copy. Beg, borrow, or steal to get it if you have to. Those are minimum resources, but they are enough to get started.
"But I already have done some of this stuff, and I don't feel sick", you say.
That's right. Everyone does a little boat work without ill effect. Nobody does a lot without some damage. The effects are often cumulative and subtle, so take precautions early.
At least one commercial builder had to stop because of severe liver damage. And I was told by an auto paint and body supply store manager, "There are no old auto painters." Same thing applies to boat builders.
Good luck, and play safe.
-
Sir Adam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 4136
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:00 am
- Location: Adirondacks, NY State, USA
- Contact:
Second
I heartily second Home Builders comments. Does epoxy smell as bad as polyester? no. Is it just as bad (or worse)-YES. I know a few folks that won't touch the stuff as they have enough "Drain Bamage" already from building boats. Well ventilated areas are your friend, too.
John Sweet has almost everything you'll need - including good quality protective gear at reasonable prices. When purchasing protective equipment you'll find you use it more than you'll expect on other projects too-there are a lot of "around the house" things we all do where we know we should be wearing protective gear (esp. respirator) and do not because we don't have one. You will, and will be better off long term for using it.
I'll also clarify my acetone use-I put a rag over the can, tip it up, then un tip it and remove the rag (while wearing gloves), then rub the "damp" rag over the area I sanded down. It removes the rest of the small particles and makes for a good bond. I learned the trick from a professional boat builder of kevlar canoes and kayaks.
Homebuilder-if there are any of the boats you've built you'd like me to post on the CBoats boat pages I'd be happy too.
John Sweet has almost everything you'll need - including good quality protective gear at reasonable prices. When purchasing protective equipment you'll find you use it more than you'll expect on other projects too-there are a lot of "around the house" things we all do where we know we should be wearing protective gear (esp. respirator) and do not because we don't have one. You will, and will be better off long term for using it.
I'll also clarify my acetone use-I put a rag over the can, tip it up, then un tip it and remove the rag (while wearing gloves), then rub the "damp" rag over the area I sanded down. It removes the rest of the small particles and makes for a good bond. I learned the trick from a professional boat builder of kevlar canoes and kayaks.
Homebuilder-if there are any of the boats you've built you'd like me to post on the CBoats boat pages I'd be happy too.
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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Home Builder
Thanks for the detail on proper acetone use when removing old outfitting. You did say to use just a "bit" when cleaning up after sanding. I think I probably read more into what you actually said.
I have used it in a similar manner for cleaning surfaces before gluing with both contact cement and resins. The fumes are so volatile, however, that I prefer to use alcohol. It seems to be just as effective and less troublesome to handle.
The acetone problem is with those people that are just starting out with this stuff. They (me, anyway) tend to use a solvent in quantity (i.e., pour some of the liquid on the old glue and rubber to soak it real good before scraping it out with a putty knife.) The amateur tends to think of acetone as something akin to a commercial paint remover. They are looking for a quick removal method to replace the more difficult sanding and grinding. I am pretty sure that using acetone that way is poor choice.
Using some heat to aid residue removal seems a reasonable alternative. A white heat lamp suspended 18 inches above the surface to be heated will give 130-150 degrees Fahrenheit of heat. Use a baking thermometer to monitor the surface temperature to avoid burning anything.
If you put the light below the surface to be heated to facilitate acces to your work, increase the distance and monitor the temperature of the closest surface carefully. It is easy to scorch or burn a boat when the temperature gets above 150 degrees. (I don't know how high the temperature has to get to burn...obviously I wasn't paying close enough attention to the thermometer at the time!)
I have used it in a similar manner for cleaning surfaces before gluing with both contact cement and resins. The fumes are so volatile, however, that I prefer to use alcohol. It seems to be just as effective and less troublesome to handle.
The acetone problem is with those people that are just starting out with this stuff. They (me, anyway) tend to use a solvent in quantity (i.e., pour some of the liquid on the old glue and rubber to soak it real good before scraping it out with a putty knife.) The amateur tends to think of acetone as something akin to a commercial paint remover. They are looking for a quick removal method to replace the more difficult sanding and grinding. I am pretty sure that using acetone that way is poor choice.
Using some heat to aid residue removal seems a reasonable alternative. A white heat lamp suspended 18 inches above the surface to be heated will give 130-150 degrees Fahrenheit of heat. Use a baking thermometer to monitor the surface temperature to avoid burning anything.
If you put the light below the surface to be heated to facilitate acces to your work, increase the distance and monitor the temperature of the closest surface carefully. It is easy to scorch or burn a boat when the temperature gets above 150 degrees. (I don't know how high the temperature has to get to burn...obviously I wasn't paying close enough attention to the thermometer at the time!)