Practice for you hard edgers

[insolence]

[/quote] So we really needn't be racing in. [/quote]


i think a certain amount of speed is necessary to cross the eddyline.
there's several components in an eddy approach - one of the is speed! plus boat angle related to eddyline and the timing of changing the tilt.

when too slow, you might not get into the eddy at all, since the eddy line catches the boat and washes you downstream.
the greater the speed difference of downstream current related to eddy current the wider the angle can or even hast to be - if the eddy current is very weak, I have to paddle kind of upstream as in a ferry move, with a strong eddy I can go for 90 ° or wider angles

if you switch to that offside chine too early, then also the eddyline catches the boat - you get downwashed and not into the eddy


so it's all about timing and a fine balance

I also find it very important when getting in then put your blade as far forward as you can and pull hard, really cramp agressively - this really helps but is often not done

[jakke]

Timing of initiation is actually not that hard if you have a pretty solid eddy.

Let the engaging of the outside tilt initiate by the eddy current. But make sure you're ready to reinforce or soften that outside tilt.
If you paddle into the eddy and you engage it too much, you end up in an offside-tilt-swim.
The reaction speed on the current-initiated outside tilt is something different though.

Talking OC1 here, don't know how it's like in a C1 let alone a slalom C1.

[philcanoe]

...- but I've never seen it recommend for a peel-out!

Pat.

Try it Pat, your missing out on a something special.

It's probably my most used method of exiting an eddy. You'll peel out farther, be under more control than with the other lean, and when down pat (sic) or learned requires minimal strength. Excellent for use on the offside peel out, it's a real plus.

[the great gonzo]

...- but I've never seen it recommend for a peel-out!

Pat.

Try it Pat, your missing out on a something special.

It's probably my most used method of exiting an eddy. You'll peel out farther, be under more control than with the other lean, and when down pat (sic) or learned requires minimal strength. Excellent for use on the offside peel out, it's a real plus.

Huh? Maybe I am misunderstanding you here Phil, but if I peel out with some outside tilt, my bow edge grabs really fast and I do not go deep into the current, but turn quite fast, alsmost as fast as when doing an agressive bow/crossbow draw turn with the hull almost flat.
When I want to peel out deep into the current, particularly on big water with strong and turbulent eddylines (thing Grand Canyon, Thompson Canyon, Main Channel of the Ottawa at high water), then my preferred technique is the on- or offside gliding draw.
Start accelerating deep in the eddy with a conservative angle and inside tilt. Put in a last forward stroke on the downstream side (inside) as you are crossing the eddyline, finishing the forward stroke with a static draw at or slightly behind your hip and hold. The static draw at the hip will keep the bow of your boat from getting blown open too early. Then start gliding that on-or offside draw forward as you are ready to turn downstream into a bow draw position. This technique gets me really deep into the current without putting in any strokes after hitting the eddyline by simply using the water pressure on my blade and it's position relative to the pivot point of my boat to control my peel out. It feels a bit awkward the first time you use it on the offside, but as Rick (PierreLaPaddelle) and Bob (we'll c) can confirm, it works like a charm.

TGG!

[insolence]

Timing of initiationcan be less trivial when you have tiny eddies, nasty eddylines etc....

@ jakke
I might be wrong, but whenever I paddled OC1 or C1 (creekboat) I never understood that there shall be a difference in the basic paddling technique and the way the boat-current-interaction works.
C1/Oc1 might are slower, edges softer/harder but I could never feel a real difference besides the fact you hardly can undercut the stern of an OC1 or C1 creeker.
this of course, is a difference
What we do there is getting in on the inside tilt, wait to a certain point - don't do it too early! - and then switch immediatly to offside tilt, so the water get's onto the back of the boat and gives some extra boost to get out of the eddy upstream gate

[jakke]

I have never been on a river in a C1, creeker or slalom, so I should not talk about it. But I'd expect the undercutting possibility to slightly change the options for outside tilts.
For the boat current behavior, I think we can add kayaks to the equation as well there , basically it's all the same.

coming in on an inside tilt and then you decide to switch to an outside tilt? It probably has it's place, but I think learning the outside tilt goes easier when going into the eddy flat, and let the current define the outside tilt. You "just" control the level of the tilt.
The way insolence is presenting it will probably not be as deadly for the overall speed, but timing gets quite a bit harder there.
And of course, the harder the river features, the harder even basic moves get...

[Craig Smerda]

**Roy captured on film while doing an outside edge turn to his offside during day one of L'edge testing.**

basically doing a 'dynamic' outside edge turn boils down to...

1. carrying momentum/speed coming into an eddy
2. transitioning to the outside/opposite edge being gradually or aggressively dropped
3. using the edge/side of the boat to make the turn while pivoting around the paddle
4. transitioning back to a neutral position

the amount of *snap* you'll get completely varies depending on several of the above noted factors... the biggest being incoming speed, the aggressiveness of the amount one drops their edge and even the upstream speed of the eddy water.

it's sort've like running really fast and then grabbing onto a pole and swinging around it. it can be done on your onside or offside. it works far better (or at the least the turn seems more dynamic and in most cases it's more aggressive) in boats with a harder edge and flatter sides than it does in boats with round edges and more round sides.

fwiw... try to avoid doing fast or aggressive outside edge turns in eddies where you know there are rocks (or might be rocks) just under the surface to get tripped up on... ask me how I know this.

let's not get started on doing upstream edge ferries or peel-outs on this thread... cuz' those are two whole notha' animals.

[KNeal]

Drill time is a Kent Ford video. Wayne Dickert was one of the featured instructors (along with Kent, Bob Foote, and Karen Knight). Great video.

KNeal, I get the advantage/fun of carving an outside edge into an eddy turn - but I've never seen it recommend for a peel-out! Pat.

Oops! You're right about that, Pat. I remember using the outside edge peeling out of the eddy when openboating, and I do recall the tendency to get the boat wet. I'll leave it at that.

[cheajack]

Craig, when do you initiate the outside edge lean relative to the paddle plant?

[Craig Smerda]

Craig, when do you initiate the outside edge lean relative to the paddle plant?

it's really sort've different every time... but I don't fully initiate a paddle plant until the middle of the boat (me) breaks through the eddy line.

there's two really good spots here in Wausau for doing dynamic outside edge turns... one (for me) is an onside move and the other is an offside move... I'll see if I can get someone to shoot a little footage doing them the next time I'm there.

[insolence]

hi there again

@jakke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbd3HSrsRo

look at about 1:50 there it's shown what I'm talking about offside tilt in slalom - indeed, it it made not to stop, but to boost speed.
and it's a hard and complex move to learn
on a river descend, you don't need to fight for seconds, but still it can be crucial to get into an eddy and move the boat precisely

[kerrye]

Wouldn't it be roughly analogous to say that an outside lean with an edgy boat is like using a pry to enter or leave an eddy instead of a draw/crossdraw or duffek/crossduffek? Certainly in a tandem boat, if the bow paddler uses a pry instead of a crossdraw, the turn will be a lot more abrupt (which is probably why it is not used very often). The difference in using the edge is that instead of having the area confronting the eddy current concentrated on the paddle blade, a similar(?) area is spread out along the boat hull as the edge tips outward.
At the Nationals last weekend I watched one of the bow paddlers amongst the female tandem teams come out of gate 15 and turn with a bow pry. I think they were paddling a Caption. If they had had an edgier boat, they could have accomplished a similar thing with an outside lean with perhaps the added advantage of the bow paddler also being able to use a cross stroke at the same time.

[yarnellboat]

Yeah, I'd say that's somewhat comparable, as far as it can be with comparing tandem to solo - I'm a lot more comfortable using a (tandem) bow pry to peel out than I would be an outside edge solo.

Draws and pries seem to be a regional thing too. Many in BC frown on, or even mock, tandem cross-bows for eddy turns, even though they've worked well everywhere forever - I've heard that discussion many times between people from BC and Ontario. Wouldn't surprise me if the bow pry you saw was the paddler from BC, though I'll bet the boat was still heeled downstream.

Pat.

[kerrye]

Wouldn't surprise me if the bow pry you saw was the paddler from BC, though I'll bet the boat was still heeled downstream.

Pat.

I believe that is true.

[philcanoe]

...- but I've never seen it recommend for a peel-out!

Pat.

Try it Pat, your missing out on a something special.

It's probably my most used method of exiting an eddy. You'll peel out farther, be under more control than with the other lean, and when down pat (sic) or learned requires minimal strength. Excellent for use on the offside peel out, it's a real plus.

Huh? Maybe I am misunderstanding you here Phil, but if I peel out with some outside tilt, my bow edge grabs really fast and I do not go deep into the current, but turn quite fast, alsmost as fast as when doing an agressive bow/crossbow draw turn with the hull almost flat.
When I want to peel out deep into the current, particularly on big water with strong and turbulent eddylines (thing Grand Canyon, Thompson Canyon, Main Channel of the Ottawa at high water), then my preferred technique is the on- or offside gliding draw.
Start accelerating deep in the eddy with a conservative angle and inside tilt. Put in a last forward stroke on the downstream side (inside) as you are crossing the eddyline, finishing the forward stroke with a static draw at or slightly behind your hip and hold. The static draw at the hip will keep the bow of your boat from getting blown open too early. Then start gliding that on-or offside draw forward as you are ready to turn downstream into a bow draw position. This technique gets me really deep into the current without putting in any strokes after hitting the eddyline by simply using the water pressure on my blade and it's position relative to the pivot point of my boat to control my peel out. It feels a bit awkward the first time you use it on the offside, but as Rick (PierreLaPaddelle) and Bob (we'll c) can confirm, it works like a charm.

TGG!

Yes = I use the same draw.

(mind you this is open boat gibberish - not sure what this would do to a low volume C1)

To peel out - I just lean upstream a wee bit, allowing some water to grab the leading edge and thus utilize/maintain/exploiting the flipping action (that most people fear or expect). The boat is held upright with a opposing high brace....(as always protect shoulder - with top hand low in the box).... this brace is maintained as that gliding draw you mentioned (really liked your description) . In practice it's like a ferry which you hold, and then when reaching your desired position somewhere out there in the current, a downward turn is allowed to happen or enacted.... I do the exact finishing part you described. In essence finishing the ferry, with a spin, s-turn, or more ferrying. And yes, it works well in big water like the G'Canyon, Ottawa, double digit New River, Wautauga (over the bridge), Little River Canyon (multiple feet), and heap big blownout creeks. Without riding the lean into a ferry, it would do as you mentioned, but the continued flipping motion and draw cancels out into a ferry. Same classic ferry forces - One force headed upriver (the flip), the Other force to the side (the draw), and the direction traveled in between the two forces (the boat).

In fact it works better in high water than the traditional one ever did, because the flipping factor just gets better. And that's what makes the whole thing work. If you think about it, by starting out leaning down you already have given up ground and are heading down stream instead of out into the current.. While if leaning upstream you are holding firm, and start ferrying very near where you started from. Of course this move requires using your core (in particular low body- thighs-knees) to control the boat, while your upper body handles to draw component, changing boat angle and lean much like you do with the other downstream lean. As you glide along on a draw (yes - you're using just one stroke) your thighs-knees-lower-back-buttocks drive the boat on the desired course. Which is the same way a boat should be driven with any other stroke. And most-especially when performing an eddy turn.

This is why the speed component is not the dominate factor, controlling the eddy turn (or peel out). If you believe it is the speed coming in, you're likely not throwing the boat around enough with your lower body. Yes the differential between slow in and fast in will increase the turn, but not near as much as what happens when using your body. I'll venture to say given the same setup, I'll spin faster this way than the plant the paddle and hang on guy ever will.