Unstable blues...
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Unstable blues...
I've been messing around with a H3 255 for about 9 months now, I got it to use as a creek boat after hearing good things about it as a C1. I have outfitted the boat with a fencerail type conversion and 2" thighstraps. For some reason I have never felt confident in the boat, getting flipped and swimming easy stuff dosen't help, I've never taken the boat on anything above a class III and only once or twice on that, mostly because I get that bad off balance feeling that some of you may remember from when you first started paddling, kinda that locked up, I don't want to move - if I do I'm going over feeling just floating through slightly swirling water, basicly one step above gunwale grabbing. I paddle an OC1 mostly and feel very aggressive in that, using inside and outside edges to go where I want, lean it to the gunwale, snap into eddies, run big stuff (class IV for me), basicly I have little or no fear on the local rivers around here in the OC. Not so in the H3, last night I hit a little rock funny just floating along and I'm upside down, next there's a shortish wave that I can 360, side, back surf in the OC w/o any problem, I get in it in the H3 get pushed out and I'm looking for Elvis under rocks, once last night and twice the time before. I tried putting a lower seat in it going from 7" to 5 1/2", that seemed to only make my legs go to sleep faster. Installed hip grabbers and found that with them I couldn't even get close to set up for a roll. I don't know what else to try, I feel like I've taken the boat out enough to where I should feel better in it. At 200+ am I too heavy for this boat or at 6' 5" am I just too darn tall for any C1 out there? I'm begining to fear how bad it'd going to be when I get my Viper on the water. Any advice or similar experiences out there the people were able to overcome?
Just a couple of thoughts. I`d say paddle some different spots from your regular haunts, might push you or distract you from your current troubles. For me, C1 involves a fair bit of rolling, WAY more than OC1 did, especially river running. So the old practice practice practice line is probably a good one.
I think it is somewhat normal to be a little spooked and unsettled making the transition from open boats. Stick with it! But seriously see if you can go run some other rapids of a similar or easier level to put these troubles behind you. Quite frustrating not being able to do the regular things you can do at your home spots.
I think it is somewhat normal to be a little spooked and unsettled making the transition from open boats. Stick with it! But seriously see if you can go run some other rapids of a similar or easier level to put these troubles behind you. Quite frustrating not being able to do the regular things you can do at your home spots.
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sbroam
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cross section?
What is the cross section of this boat like? I'm not familiar with the H3 series - are they rounded or do they have much of a chine?
How about your open boats? You mentioned edges - Ocoee? Viper?
I've got a Rockit that I converted that paddles very differently than my flat bottomed, hard chined boats that I've been paddling almost exclusively for the last 10 years or so. There are no edges to trip over, but less initial stability. It wobbles easily side to side, but with increasing resistance as it reaches the "tipping point" (more secondary) and it rolls like spinning a top - I think if I sneezed while under water, I'd be up. I was a little unsettled at first by the wobbling, but quickly learned that the secondary is reliable. I wonder if this is what you are experiencing?
This might tie into the "Atom edginess" discussion, except you are going the other way - coming from the edgy side of things, with a different "stability profile"...
Give it time! I've come to appreciate both forms. For me it is a big confidence booster when running shallow stuff knowing that I won't be tripping over those edges and end up banging elbows and knuckles while trying to count fish (that's most distracting).
How about your open boats? You mentioned edges - Ocoee? Viper?
I've got a Rockit that I converted that paddles very differently than my flat bottomed, hard chined boats that I've been paddling almost exclusively for the last 10 years or so. There are no edges to trip over, but less initial stability. It wobbles easily side to side, but with increasing resistance as it reaches the "tipping point" (more secondary) and it rolls like spinning a top - I think if I sneezed while under water, I'd be up. I was a little unsettled at first by the wobbling, but quickly learned that the secondary is reliable. I wonder if this is what you are experiencing?
This might tie into the "Atom edginess" discussion, except you are going the other way - coming from the edgy side of things, with a different "stability profile"...
Give it time! I've come to appreciate both forms. For me it is a big confidence booster when running shallow stuff knowing that I won't be tripping over those edges and end up banging elbows and knuckles while trying to count fish (that's most distracting).
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chuck naill
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Unstable Thoughts
Your problem may be that your seating position needs to be more forward. You should be able to reach around the bow and do a crossbow with the paddle in the water. Additional thoughts are that the boat needs to be lighter. If any kayak hardware remains, get rid of it. Seat height can make you unstable also. I had some problems with my boat and these changes made all the differance.
Thanks for the info guys;
James,
That makes a lot of sense about the paddling in a different area, because that is a really frustrating thing to not be able to do today in the C1, what I did yesterday in the OC1. May just paddle certain rivers in each one till I get better
SBroam
The hull is a semi planing hull, I'll try to explain it; the middle 60% is flat then there is about a 7 degree upturn on the 20% on either side to a hard chine. I can really notice the upturn. To me I don't get the feeling of alot of secondary stability.
My regular OC is a Nitro but I've paddled a friends Ocoee and Viper with no problem, actually prefer the harder chines on the Ocoee. The Nitro has wierd chines, you got to put some lean into it to get the edges to catch.
Chuck
After lowering the saddle the boat now trims a little too far foward but I can still barely reach crossbows around the bow. The boat is a heavy pig though, no butt paraphernalia left it's just a heavy boat and big. I never though of this affecting the feeling of stability, could you explain, not that I'm doubting, I would just like to understand.
I have two more questions;
1: If you have a seat height of say 8" and the boat is trimmed out evenly, if you lower it by 3" would you tend to be more stern or bow heavy, or neither?
2: In trying to learn C1 would it be better to just paddle C1 and not both C and OC?
James,
That makes a lot of sense about the paddling in a different area, because that is a really frustrating thing to not be able to do today in the C1, what I did yesterday in the OC1. May just paddle certain rivers in each one till I get better
SBroam
The hull is a semi planing hull, I'll try to explain it; the middle 60% is flat then there is about a 7 degree upturn on the 20% on either side to a hard chine. I can really notice the upturn. To me I don't get the feeling of alot of secondary stability.
My regular OC is a Nitro but I've paddled a friends Ocoee and Viper with no problem, actually prefer the harder chines on the Ocoee. The Nitro has wierd chines, you got to put some lean into it to get the edges to catch.
Chuck
After lowering the saddle the boat now trims a little too far foward but I can still barely reach crossbows around the bow. The boat is a heavy pig though, no butt paraphernalia left it's just a heavy boat and big. I never though of this affecting the feeling of stability, could you explain, not that I'm doubting, I would just like to understand.
I have two more questions;
1: If you have a seat height of say 8" and the boat is trimmed out evenly, if you lower it by 3" would you tend to be more stern or bow heavy, or neither?
2: In trying to learn C1 would it be better to just paddle C1 and not both C and OC?
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chuck naill
- CBoats Addict
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- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:44 am
- Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
reply
For me, lowering the seat height lowered the center of gravity and I became more stable in the Dagger GTX. By coming forward, 9 inches from the rear cockpit, holes had nothing to grab and flip me with. By being lighter, the boat sits higher so the there are less edge and sides for the river to effect. I saw a young kid on the Ocoee playing in a rapid. He was about 5'9" and weighed 125 lbs. He was paddling without any effort and had great stablilty because basicall nothing was sticking out of the boat that weighed much.
Also, I use a Dagger c-1 pedistal. You can make them out of minicell foam that are lighter. I got a throw bag from NRS that you carry around your waist. The only thing in my boat is foam and two air bags in front. These changes have made monumental differances.
Chuck
Also, I use a Dagger c-1 pedistal. You can make them out of minicell foam that are lighter. I got a throw bag from NRS that you carry around your waist. The only thing in my boat is foam and two air bags in front. These changes have made monumental differances.
Chuck
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Larry Horne
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Sorry to here about your stability problems. I had the same kind of issues when I converted from O C Vipers to an Atom. I wonder if you feel a little claustrophobia in the decked boat? Being tense certainly causes problems for me. It's most likely just a matter of time, getting acquainted with life in a skirt.
I do think you chose a good boat. I also have an H3 255 and absolutely love it. It is the most stabil c-1 i've ever paddled. reminds me a lot of my viper oc's.
My seat is around 6 1/2". i think it's a reeeeal long reach to reach around the bow, this boat is too long for that. Just get the trim neutral. You weigh a little more than me, but you are not too big for this boat. There must be something wrong with you cause the boat is good. (JUST KIDDING!)
That being said...I'm going to mention something that may sound so basic it's ridiculous. but it did happen to me.
You should check to make sure you are centered in your boat from side to side. I know, I know...But when I set up my second h-3, I just swapped the stuff out of my first one, a super easy-no brainer conversion! But when i got it on the water it felt bad- something was off. Turns out my hip pads were forcing me off cener by 1/2 an inch. Just enough to make the boat feel like crap. I had to pull a string on the boat to find this, it wasn't very easy to see.
Good luck.
I do think you chose a good boat. I also have an H3 255 and absolutely love it. It is the most stabil c-1 i've ever paddled. reminds me a lot of my viper oc's.
My seat is around 6 1/2". i think it's a reeeeal long reach to reach around the bow, this boat is too long for that. Just get the trim neutral. You weigh a little more than me, but you are not too big for this boat. There must be something wrong with you cause the boat is good. (JUST KIDDING!)
That being said...I'm going to mention something that may sound so basic it's ridiculous. but it did happen to me.
You should check to make sure you are centered in your boat from side to side. I know, I know...But when I set up my second h-3, I just swapped the stuff out of my first one, a super easy-no brainer conversion! But when i got it on the water it felt bad- something was off. Turns out my hip pads were forcing me off cener by 1/2 an inch. Just enough to make the boat feel like crap. I had to pull a string on the boat to find this, it wasn't very easy to see.
Good luck.
Larry
I paddled a bit in a ocoee oc1 when I was starting out last fall and found that after I went from that to a C1 (atom or cascade in my case) I tended to over-exagerrate my leaning, maybe you could try to paddle the boat more often (without paddling your OC1 imbetween as often, not necessarily cutting out oc1 paddling entirely)
if you lower your saddle without moving your back-brace, you'll tend to make your boat more bow-heavy I think (on account of forcing your legs further forward from your knees being flexed more)
if you've got an 8" saddle on that boat, I'd say that your saddle height is at least part of the problem
good luck!
if you lower your saddle without moving your back-brace, you'll tend to make your boat more bow-heavy I think (on account of forcing your legs further forward from your knees being flexed more)
if you've got an 8" saddle on that boat, I'd say that your saddle height is at least part of the problem
good luck!
Thanks to all, I redid the seat on my H:3, chopped it down to about 6 1/2 inches and widened it to about 9 (wich I thinked helped more than lowering it). I feel much more stable and confident in the boat now and am finding new boundries as to how far I can go and still recover without having to roll. Big thanks James, padding certain rivers and stretches in the C1 only definately helped, there was no preconception as to what line, surf wave or hole (miss or hit) that I was supposed to run so I concentrated purely on paddling, this has helped tremendously. My decked boat paddling has definately improved. Now if I can only get my Viper ready for the water in time to catch the last of the summer weather.