Last week I posted a question regarding using a kayak paddle. One reason for that is that I only paddle with kayakers, and I always feel like I get "worked" more that they do. Part of it is that I am I newbie (couple of years paddling), and my buddies have multiple years experience.
So, how good is everyone? Can a strong C-boater keep up with a kayaker of comparable ability?
(P.S. I really do enjoy paddling C1 more that kayaking. It is just so much more elegant. I have to be so much more precise with paddle placement, boat placement, everything.)
Skill level question
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
-
yarnellboat
"If it were easy, they'd call it kayaking."
My take is that while, yes, some C-1ers, and even open-boaters, can "keep up" with the best kayakers, (you only have to look at some of videos or books with shots of canoes running crazy stuff), those c-boaters are pretty committed and represent the elite. They've likely worked harder than the people who are kayaking with them.
People (very good paddlers) here may disagree. I've questioned how Class III rapids are considered "intermediate" for open boats when it takes people years to build the skills and confidence to paddle Class III water. However, lots of relatively new kayakers can jump into C III rapids pretty early on.
So, while it's possible, I think for most recreational boaters, you'll see more kayakers in the Class III-IV stuff because, as you said, you've got to be more precise with everything when canoeing.
The kayakers I paddle Class II-III with are either new or old. Most people who I consider to be serious kayakers spend their time in Class IV water that I wouldn't do in my canoe. But I'm a recreational paddler with a tripping background just starting to run/play in C III whitewater.
P.
My take is that while, yes, some C-1ers, and even open-boaters, can "keep up" with the best kayakers, (you only have to look at some of videos or books with shots of canoes running crazy stuff), those c-boaters are pretty committed and represent the elite. They've likely worked harder than the people who are kayaking with them.
People (very good paddlers) here may disagree. I've questioned how Class III rapids are considered "intermediate" for open boats when it takes people years to build the skills and confidence to paddle Class III water. However, lots of relatively new kayakers can jump into C III rapids pretty early on.
So, while it's possible, I think for most recreational boaters, you'll see more kayakers in the Class III-IV stuff because, as you said, you've got to be more precise with everything when canoeing.
The kayakers I paddle Class II-III with are either new or old. Most people who I consider to be serious kayakers spend their time in Class IV water that I wouldn't do in my canoe. But I'm a recreational paddler with a tripping background just starting to run/play in C III whitewater.
P.
Well, here's my $0.02 worth, again
Hi, Darreng. I'd say that the LEARNING is different in a canoe (decked/open) than in a kyack, so don't be discouraged by your rate of skill development. Balancing, edging, and paddle use are all different than what your buddies are doing in their boats so you don't have good role models (I'd probably say that about EVERY kyacker 
, save C1Dub). Single bladers are only limited by what interests them and being stuck learning from kyackers (hee hee!).
I'm not able to help you with your skills on this board, but I am always happy to help a fellow cboater where I can (I'm gonna make this an OBVIOUS HINT TO MSHELTON since he lives in Richmond and has my phone number and has yet to call me regarding his recent questions--so call me about your Viper, Marshall, and we can compare boats and notes
).
Keep the "T" stick high with pride and remember that you can take your paddling as far as you, and your boat, wants to go.
KNeal
, save C1Dub). Single bladers are only limited by what interests them and being stuck learning from kyackers (hee hee!).I'm not able to help you with your skills on this board, but I am always happy to help a fellow cboater where I can (I'm gonna make this an OBVIOUS HINT TO MSHELTON since he lives in Richmond and has my phone number and has yet to call me regarding his recent questions--so call me about your Viper, Marshall, and we can compare boats and notes
).Keep the "T" stick high with pride and remember that you can take your paddling as far as you, and your boat, wants to go.
KNeal
Why paddle C-style? (long)
For me, this topic speaks to a question that has occurred to me over and over as I have progressed as a C paddler: Why paddle C-style?
At times I almost think I should throw in the towel and start paddling on my butt. I have kayaking friends that have been paddling half as long as I have, and they can confidently run the same water that I can run. Also, I flip more often than anyone that I paddle with. Most of my paddling friends are kayakers.
But when it comes right down to it, I don't think I will ever settle for butt-boating - unless I physically have no choice for some reason like old age or injury, etc. I have identified two reasons for this.
The obvious reason is that I can run rivers in an open boat and do pretty well. As fun as the decked boats are, I would not want to give up paddling open canoes. Paddling for me started in an open canoe. I suppose I could paddle OC with a double-bladed paddle, which leads me to the second reason that I paddle C-style.
I prefer to be just outside the mainstream pack. I vote for the underdog. My new puppy is a cheasapeake, not a labrador. I prefer to build stuff that I could just buy. I think custom homes are better than production homes, and small customs are more cool than big customs. I paddle with one blade instead of two.
Now that I am accustomed to these ideas, it is much easier to see my kayaking friends progress more rapidly than I seem to be progressing. They are on their trip, and I am on mine. Whenever I hit a sweet line and make it all work - it really is worth the extra effort.
If you want my two cents on your question about using two blades - I say give it all a try. Find what works best for you and go for it.
"Can a strong C-boater keep up with a kayaker of comparable ability?" Absolutely, but it will take a while to get there.
At times I almost think I should throw in the towel and start paddling on my butt. I have kayaking friends that have been paddling half as long as I have, and they can confidently run the same water that I can run. Also, I flip more often than anyone that I paddle with. Most of my paddling friends are kayakers.
But when it comes right down to it, I don't think I will ever settle for butt-boating - unless I physically have no choice for some reason like old age or injury, etc. I have identified two reasons for this.
The obvious reason is that I can run rivers in an open boat and do pretty well. As fun as the decked boats are, I would not want to give up paddling open canoes. Paddling for me started in an open canoe. I suppose I could paddle OC with a double-bladed paddle, which leads me to the second reason that I paddle C-style.
I prefer to be just outside the mainstream pack. I vote for the underdog. My new puppy is a cheasapeake, not a labrador. I prefer to build stuff that I could just buy. I think custom homes are better than production homes, and small customs are more cool than big customs. I paddle with one blade instead of two.
Now that I am accustomed to these ideas, it is much easier to see my kayaking friends progress more rapidly than I seem to be progressing. They are on their trip, and I am on mine. Whenever I hit a sweet line and make it all work - it really is worth the extra effort.
If you want my two cents on your question about using two blades - I say give it all a try. Find what works best for you and go for it.
"Can a strong C-boater keep up with a kayaker of comparable ability?" Absolutely, but it will take a while to get there.
Cone Bone
randy@artisansgroup.com
randy@artisansgroup.com
-
aldenb
boatin
hey darren,
what an interesting question. It does seem like as a c-1 you get more worked in the beginning than kayakers. It can be frustrating sometimes.
But I assure you, as you paddle c-1 more, the differences disappear. For example, your balance will get better and you'll realize that you dont need a brace anymore for most offside waves. That is a great feeling.
It's good to paddle with a good c-1er, that will show you what is possible. Or get a kayak video that has c-1ers in it and check that out.
I give you a lot credit for paddling c-1 over kayak. It may be a harder, but that's what makes it more of a challenge and more rewarding.
Have fun,
Alden
what an interesting question. It does seem like as a c-1 you get more worked in the beginning than kayakers. It can be frustrating sometimes.
But I assure you, as you paddle c-1 more, the differences disappear. For example, your balance will get better and you'll realize that you dont need a brace anymore for most offside waves. That is a great feeling.
It's good to paddle with a good c-1er, that will show you what is possible. Or get a kayak video that has c-1ers in it and check that out.
I give you a lot credit for paddling c-1 over kayak. It may be a harder, but that's what makes it more of a challenge and more rewarding.
Have fun,
Alden
-
aldenb
boatin
Also . . .
I don't think there is any commonly run rapid in the US that kayaks have done that c-1ers (or open boats) have not. There might be a few uncommonly run rapids that c-boats have never done, but that is just because there are fewer c-1ers.
The first descents of lots of hardcore stuff -- Great Falls on the Potomac, Big Splat, Niagara Gorge, Upper Blackwater, Tsang Po -- all featured c-1ers. And lots of other hard stuff.
I don't think there is any commonly run rapid in the US that kayaks have done that c-1ers (or open boats) have not. There might be a few uncommonly run rapids that c-boats have never done, but that is just because there are fewer c-1ers.
The first descents of lots of hardcore stuff -- Great Falls on the Potomac, Big Splat, Niagara Gorge, Upper Blackwater, Tsang Po -- all featured c-1ers. And lots of other hard stuff.
-
Mike W.
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 2206
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:52 pm
- Location: Roanoke Rapids, NC
- Contact:
I paddled the Ocoee (upper & middle 
) for the 1st time at 'week of rivers' last week. I was being shown the lines by a kayker who happened to be using hand paddles. One of the 600,000,000 rafters 
asked why I had a paddle & he had "those things on his hands". I think my kayaker buddy put it best when he replied "the hand paddles are easier".
) for the 1st time at 'week of rivers' last week. I was being shown the lines by a kayker who happened to be using hand paddles. One of the 600,000,000 rafters asked why I had a paddle & he had "those things on his hands". I think my kayaker buddy put it best when he replied "the hand paddles are easier".-
Guest
Yes - C-1 Can keep up with Kayaks
Obviously it depends on the river, your skill level and the paddlers you are with.
The only time I have felt a disadvantage being in a c-boat with Kayakers is crossing the lake at the end of Section iV of the Chatooga - On the river it is no issue, but on the lake it is nice to stretch your legs and that is a bit harder with 1 blade and in a c-boat.
F
The only time I have felt a disadvantage being in a c-boat with Kayakers is crossing the lake at the end of Section iV of the Chatooga - On the river it is no issue, but on the lake it is nice to stretch your legs and that is a bit harder with 1 blade and in a c-boat.
F
Yes it is harder to learn. I know there are still some simple moves that I should be able to do eg. paddle backwards, but I don't seem to be able to get the hang of it, but than again I choose C1 cause it was a chalange, as I was board of K1 and how easy it was. Having said that all it takes is pratice to get better, I can surf a hole or wave better than the K1's I paddle with, I can catch most the eddys they catch and I can make fun of them if they crash into a rock and get sore feet.
Perception AMP
C-1`
If you have this affliction with a kayak paddle then just paddle a kayak. Otherwise bite the bullet, pay your dues, and paddle a c-1.
We don't do it because it is easy, we learn to make it easy, just like kayakers do. Maybe YOU will be the Tao of c-1.
We don't do it because it is easy, we learn to make it easy, just like kayakers do. Maybe YOU will be the Tao of c-1.
-
C-1W
keeping up
Yes, C-1 takes longer to learn, and you are at a power disadvantage in certain situations. But there are trade-offs, too, as you gain experience,
If you practice technique, especially offside moves, I think you can paddle anything the K-1s do: it just takes more practice to get to the same level. Look at the WCs: the top C-1s make all the moves, & are nearly as fast as the winning K-1s. Kayaks can accelerate faster, but a single C-1 stroke has more power. In general C-1s are more maneuverable because they can use that power to turn faster, and many times a C-1 can brace where kayaks would be rolling (and in my experience, on the average a C-1 can roll up much faster as well). Finally, C-1 is the premier river-running boat because you can see where you are going. Try that in a butt-boat!
Certain power moves, such as jumping a huge eddy fence, especially if the are offside moves, are tough. I am small, and once I put in just below the tubes at the Gauley and could not jump the fence. Round & round I went & could not get out, while my companion (a K-1) sat below & waited, until finally I had to endure the ultimate humiliation of taking out in front of all the bemused rafters & carrying down below. High, fast offside ferries can be hard, too. But I've seen plenty of guys do all the same moves: they are at less of a strength disadvantage than I. When I was first starting I had to be more defensive at times about picking my strategy, but the above incident is the only one I can think of where I really just was stuck! Going upstream takes strength & precision, but there is nothing cooler that riding the wave train in Hermit in a C-1, and you will look cool, too. Much cooler than any K-1.
Finally, a suggestion is that when you paddle a hard technical river like the UY for the first time, try to go with a C-1 familiar with the river AND who paddles the same side as you: you can't always trust the K-1 lines!!
Half the paddle, twice the woman!
If you practice technique, especially offside moves, I think you can paddle anything the K-1s do: it just takes more practice to get to the same level. Look at the WCs: the top C-1s make all the moves, & are nearly as fast as the winning K-1s. Kayaks can accelerate faster, but a single C-1 stroke has more power. In general C-1s are more maneuverable because they can use that power to turn faster, and many times a C-1 can brace where kayaks would be rolling (and in my experience, on the average a C-1 can roll up much faster as well). Finally, C-1 is the premier river-running boat because you can see where you are going. Try that in a butt-boat!
Certain power moves, such as jumping a huge eddy fence, especially if the are offside moves, are tough. I am small, and once I put in just below the tubes at the Gauley and could not jump the fence. Round & round I went & could not get out, while my companion (a K-1) sat below & waited, until finally I had to endure the ultimate humiliation of taking out in front of all the bemused rafters & carrying down below. High, fast offside ferries can be hard, too. But I've seen plenty of guys do all the same moves: they are at less of a strength disadvantage than I. When I was first starting I had to be more defensive at times about picking my strategy, but the above incident is the only one I can think of where I really just was stuck! Going upstream takes strength & precision, but there is nothing cooler that riding the wave train in Hermit in a C-1, and you will look cool, too. Much cooler than any K-1.
Finally, a suggestion is that when you paddle a hard technical river like the UY for the first time, try to go with a C-1 familiar with the river AND who paddles the same side as you: you can't always trust the K-1 lines!!
Half the paddle, twice the woman!
I started paddling in a C-1. I had a similar experience back in the late '70s when everyone I paddled with was in a kayak. I felt like I couldn't keep up, couldn't roll as easily and couldn't do all the hard rivers and cool stuff they could do. So I got a kayak. I quickly developed a solid roll and could do everything all my buddies could do. I got rid of it after about a season and a half and went back to my C-1. I was bored to tears in a kayak. No challenge, everything was too easy.
I still can't do as hard a rivers or moves as the kayakers. Some of which is because I'm self taught, not that good a paddler and I'm old and lazy. Now I couldn't make this statement too many places except right here - but I also know it's because kayaking, as compared to paddling a C-1, is frankly pretty easy.
A couple years ago a kayaker wanted to try my C-1, it's high volume, slightly smaller than a Hahn. We switched boats at Cucumber on the lower Yough. While he was swimming I jumped on the waves in his kayak and surfed some after not having been in a kayak for over 25 years. Said to myself, yep, kayaking's a lot easier than a C-1. The kayaker's statement was, "How do you paddle that, that's really hard." I'm not sure I agree with this, but some place I read that it's four times harder than a kayak.
So you should feel better now, and the answer to your question is that a good C-1ist can do everything a kayaker can. Some day I hope I'll be a good C-1ist. Let's see .. I started in the late '60s ... well Ok I might die before that happens, but I've never been bored.
I still can't do as hard a rivers or moves as the kayakers. Some of which is because I'm self taught, not that good a paddler and I'm old and lazy. Now I couldn't make this statement too many places except right here - but I also know it's because kayaking, as compared to paddling a C-1, is frankly pretty easy.
A couple years ago a kayaker wanted to try my C-1, it's high volume, slightly smaller than a Hahn. We switched boats at Cucumber on the lower Yough. While he was swimming I jumped on the waves in his kayak and surfed some after not having been in a kayak for over 25 years. Said to myself, yep, kayaking's a lot easier than a C-1. The kayaker's statement was, "How do you paddle that, that's really hard." I'm not sure I agree with this, but some place I read that it's four times harder than a kayak.
So you should feel better now, and the answer to your question is that a good C-1ist can do everything a kayaker can. Some day I hope I'll be a good C-1ist. Let's see .. I started in the late '60s ... well Ok I might die before that happens, but I've never been bored.
Thanks for all of your responses.
Last week I tried kayaking again; the first time in 10 years. Yeah, it is easier. And I still have the problem of my legs falling asleep in a kayak, so I’m staying with the single blade. That and it really is more fun than kayaking.
I’ve been having some good days lately. My roll is (getting more) solid, my cross-bow strokes are coming along, and have been able to do some surfing. In fact, I’m so psyched on C-1 that next season I want an open boat.
If any of you are passing through Cody, WY (on the way to Yellowstone), drop me a message at: http://westwyoming.com/kayaking/. We can take a quick run on the Shoshone.
Darren
Last week I tried kayaking again; the first time in 10 years. Yeah, it is easier. And I still have the problem of my legs falling asleep in a kayak, so I’m staying with the single blade. That and it really is more fun than kayaking.
I’ve been having some good days lately. My roll is (getting more) solid, my cross-bow strokes are coming along, and have been able to do some surfing. In fact, I’m so psyched on C-1 that next season I want an open boat.
If any of you are passing through Cody, WY (on the way to Yellowstone), drop me a message at: http://westwyoming.com/kayaking/. We can take a quick run on the Shoshone.
Darren
-
C-1W
Universal truth
It is a universal truth that any competent C-1 can get in a K-1 & just paddle it, while the reverse is highly untrue. They just sit there & spin in circles. You may look a little funny, but you will do just fine.
Years ago I watched Jon Lugbill race K-1 at Slippery Rock. That is a narrow, very technical stream, and they used to have a very nice fall race there. Jon apparently must have decided to teach the K-1's a lesson: he finished a close second in K-1. But I remember enjoying some rather technical move where he hesitated for an tiny instant and then just did the whole move stroking on the left!
(He didn't touch any gates with that in-the-way extra blade, either.)
Years ago I watched Jon Lugbill race K-1 at Slippery Rock. That is a narrow, very technical stream, and they used to have a very nice fall race there. Jon apparently must have decided to teach the K-1's a lesson: he finished a close second in K-1. But I remember enjoying some rather technical move where he hesitated for an tiny instant and then just did the whole move stroking on the left!
(He didn't touch any gates with that in-the-way extra blade, either.)