Pulling in the gunnels on a Probe 12

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:53 pm

If this were my only boat I would definitely be looking to upgrade, but I have a Caption and a L'edge so like I said. This is just a fun project. I don't really care what the end results are so much as seeing how it shakes out.

Einar: What's your schedule this week? I am off Monday-Thursday.

Kyle

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:16 am

So I stopped by Lowes the other day and bought some poplar boards to use a temporary thwarts.

The stock thwarts were 25.25" in the rear, and 24.5" in the front. I made replacement thwarts that were 1", 1.5", and 2" shorter than stock.

With the stock thwarts the boat is 12'4" long, 28" wide (measured at the h in Mohawk on the left side) at the gunnels, and roughly 31" wide from the outtermost edges of the hull (again measured from the h). The top of the bow deck plate to the floor was 1'7", and the top of the stern deck plate to the floor is 1'9.25".

With the -1" thwarts the Probe was 12'5" long, 27" wide at the gunnels, and 30" side to side. The bow height remained the same, but the stern changed to 1'8.75".

With the -1.5" thwarts the boat was 12'5" long, 26.25" wide at the gunnels, and about 29.75" side to side. The bow height was 1'6.5", and the stern height was 1'8.5"

The -2" thwarts brought the length up to 12'5.75", 25.5 wide at the gunnels, and about 29.5" side to side. The bow height was 1'5.75", and the stern height remained 1'8.5".

I'll post more when I get a chance to test them out. We had some rain and the run I was going to test them on got washed out.

Kyle

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:56 pm

Makes sense to me Kyle (though I think some people who'd know better have suggested otherwise?) - makes sense that as you make a rockered boat more narrow that you push out the length and flatten the rocker.

Any observations about the hull shape - do the edges get harder or the bottom get rounder?

Have fun paddling it, hope you find something you like.

Pat.

p.s. Hope you & the L'Edge had a good run on the Chilli canyon, was that you your first time down it in a canoe?

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:10 pm

No edge magically appeared. Short of heating up the boat to the point where I could deform it (which seems like a bad idea!) I don't think that would happen.

I didn't notice if the bottom got rounder, but I did notice the sides became more vertical. I imagine this is probably from a combination of the bottom getting rounder and the chine getting harder. I just don't have a good way to measure it.

I am off to test out the -1" twarts on the Nooksack. I'll post results later.

Kyle

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:39 am

I took the Probe out today, and was surprised by the results.

The -1" thwarts made the boat have much better tracking, and made it faster as well. Primary and secondary stability were the same as stock. The boat still carved like a displacement hull. I like a boat that turns on a dime so to me this was not an improvement.

The -1.5" thwarts made the boat shed some primary stability, and the secondary stability was still as solid as it was with the stock boat. The boat still turned like a dog, but when pulling into a eddy it started to whip around almost like there was an edge, but as soon as the boat started to whip around it began sliding again.

Here is the surprise. At -2" the Probe started to handle like it had a decent edge to it. Being able to carve turns made a huge difference. What really caught me off guard was that in addition to carving the boat regained most of its ability to spin quickly. There was a distinct loss of primary stability, but the secondary stability was not really affected.

None of the thwarts made the boat harder or easier to roll.

The next step is another day on a river with more eddying opportunities and the -1.5" and -2" thwarts. I think I can definitely toss out the -1" thwarts.

Pat: It was my second time canoeing the canyon. I am trying to get out there again tomorrow while there is still som water in it!

Kyle

dwd58 · Post by **dwd58** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:59 am

Kyle, keep us posted on these changes. This is a very interesting experiment.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:27 am

Will do!

The bottom stays flat even with the -2" thwarts. The boat is noticeably narrower at a glance, and it transitions from one edge to the other much smoother now.

I took it to the pool tonight so I could play around with the secondary stability in warmer waters. I could sink the gunnels without flipping. Basically secondary stability and the ease of rolling all stayed the same as stock.

Here are some pics. While I swear I can see the difference in person, I am not sure it photographs well. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 7047435369

Kyle

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:34 am

1) Have you compared a timed flat water sprint in each (maybe two three of each) ?

also

2) Have you played with maybe a "-2" thwart and -"1" combination? - (this may not have much affect with the current end system, of mega decks and trademark Mohawk formed ends)

I have been able to play with such setups by using two clamps on one side. One was used to determine width, and the the other attached the 1st c-clamp to the boat.

ohioboater · Post by **ohioboater** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:41 pm

Mohawk changed the name scheme when they changed owners. Is this an original Probe 12 (now called Probe 13) or is it a new Probe 12 (what they used to call the Probe 12II)?

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:55 pm

According to the measurements he gave, it must be a Probe 12 II (now the Probe 12).

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:18 pm

According to his original post on OCs in Jan 2010, Wiggins decided on a Probe 13, but if I recall correctly, Mohawk shipped him a probe 12 (formerly 12II) instead, so I think that's what it is. And yeah, that's what fits his stock measurements of 12'4" in length.

Original thread on this boat:
http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

P.

avlclimber · Post by **avlclimber** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:35 pm

Thanks for the fascinating photos and report. Please continue to post your observations on noticeable changes to the Probe's performance.

Mohawk thwarts:

Unless they changed the system, there is a aluminum dowel/cylinder that attaches to the thwart and extends down into the foam saddle. It is a pretty good way to anchor the saddle in the boat.

Does anyone have any idea how in the hades to loosen the nut way up inside the 5" cylinder to remove it from a thwart, and (even more difficult) hold in in place to tighten the confounded device on a new thwart?

I have run into this problem before and jerry-rigged some messy solutions.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:25 pm

It is a newer Probe 12 (formerly the Probe 12II).

I haven't done flat water timed speed tests. I'll see if I can try this out at the next pool session, but I don't think there will be a big difference.

I haven't thought about using different sized thwarts because I wanted to try to get an edgier feel which I didn't get from the larger thwarts.

Kyle

Shep · Post by **Shep** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:51 am

avlclimber, check and see if your local hardware has a socket extension. You can get plenty long ones to go with a 1/4" drive socket set. If you don't have a socket set you can usually find those really cheap if it is the house brand at a big box store. You might even get the whole setup for less than $20 if you are lucky. Hard part is getting a millimeter size socket for cheap (if that is what the nut is).

I had the same problem on a an xl13.

Shep

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:42 pm

av l your must be old we havn't done it this way in years. now it is a one peice insert. No nuts and bolts to deal with in the bottom of the 5 inch tube.

C-Forum

Pulling in the gunnels on a Probe 12

Which Probe 12 is this?

Probe 12/12II