What next?

[Craig Smerda]

An interesting discussion... http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1052339904/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Leland's comments are (as always) well thought out and interesting to read.


In the past few years there's been a few new well recieved OC designs that have come out and with a couple more on the horizon this year the creeker market should be good to go for a while. There doesn't seem to be a big interest in playboating from the OC community and those bases seem well covered. River runners... yeah... there's already oodles of proven designs like the Ocoee/Viper or Outrage/Detonator. Which leaves us with what? What do you all want next? Where's the next horizon line?

I've a few idea's and projects I'm working on for the future... but let's hear (once again) what y'all would like to see coming down the pipe.

[2opnboat1]

I think the next big step is in material and the process used to make them.

[PatrickOC1]

Affordable..... Non-conversion C-1's, Seeing a thread about the Wheelboy a few weeks ago the consensus was " thats a great boat If you see one dont pass it up" and "too bad the dont make 'em anymore". I see talk of that boat and the fink of course. I mean If they can crank out kayaks to sell at $700-900 why cant someone make a few C-1s with a nice strap setup I think that would be nice, get the playboaters that dont like dumping before heading back up the eddy.


edit to fix spelling

[Cheeks]

Also, some marketing push to try and expand OCing, both into existing segments, as well as new areas such as kayakers looking for a different challenge and in locations where OCing isn't as popular as say, the Southeast. I think the last two years have been great for canoeing, especially in breaking some of the pre-concieved notions people might have about the sport as a market segment. If I was doing marketing for a canoe company, I'd be looking to challenge some more of those misconceptions, and grow the market.

Canoeing's always going to be a niche segment of the paddlesports industry, but as this year showed, it isn't dying and it doesn't have to be small time.

[RodeoClown]

Short tandem boats.

[Cheeks]

I also agree with Richard. Innovation drives progress, and change-resistant people and companies soon find themselves in bankruptcy court and the bread line. Anytime you can incorporate a new product development process, which Mohawk, Esquif, and Blackfly seems to be doing, you are going to have a better result than some guy saying, hmm, I bet a playboat for 140-pound paddlers made of aluminum would sell really well.

[PatrickOC1]

so a gruman C-1 for us little guys is out of the question then

I think you are right about the marketing though I think Jeremy has done a great job bringing attention to OC1 with the blackfly videos out there gets the kayakers to look twice seeing what can be done in the blackfly....

And of course process and material improvements are neccesarry(sp?) Less weight + more rigid as everyone asks about.....

But can we get a C-1 I dont need an airplane seatbelt in to be able to roll?

[TheKrikkitWars]

Incremental improvements...

Take kayak playboats: The Arrival of the S6 and G-Force heralded a rough template for pretty much all the boats that followed and produced a stagnation of the previously weird and wacky innovation in playboat design, about two years later Dagger released the FX, which was way short... it got mixed reviews from the pro's but the public wouldn't buy it... Now some nine years later and we've got boats getting incrementally shorter and fatter such that the latest offerings from Jackson, Pyranha and Titan all look closer to the ill fated FX than the G-Force.

Unless something can produce a [please forgive this word] paragdim shift in the way we paddle overnight, then big radical changes are much less likely to be accepted, successful or desired.

[Craig Smerda]

Short tandem boats.

I have seen the future firsthand... and it did not involve a divorce lawyer?

[DougB]

How about improved outfitting, like an adjustable bulkhead and bring back a 10' Ocoee clone.

[Shep]

I think the most interesting question is the most original one: "What is next in hull design?" I think Richard has a fair point in taking that towards materials, because hull designs are no good without the technology and materials to build them.

I also think Lelands argument over on Boatertalk about reducing the "friendliness" of designs is an interesting one, I'm just not convinced that you can put the genie back in the bottle so easily once people have gotten used to easy-to-use boats. I think it's akin to telemark skis. When downhill skis started getting side-cut, the people who wanted to work hard picked up telemark. 10 years later, people had moved to plastic tele boots. 10 years after that, and we have NTN and plate bindings. Yes, snowboarding and alpine skiing are still easier to do well than telemark, but for the people who took a step up the challenge ladder, the gear improvements have now taken them two steps down the challenge ladder again. The people who still like leather boots and skinny skis are skiing 15 year old designs that haven't been updated.

So, back to materials. Clearly we are having a renaissance in plastic boats right now, but the price is weight. Mohawk's new boat will be blow-molded, which I understand usually makes for a lighter hull than rotomolding. If that's the case, could we be on our way towards a 13' plastic boat? What about new slalom C1 hulls in plastic, so people feel okay about paddling them for general use? Can blowmolding make the tight radiuses necessary for a good slalom C1 hull (hypothetical question)? In 10 years, will every plastic OC1 have gone to a new manufacturing technology?

Some pretty exciting question!

Shep

[Craig Smerda]

I think the most interesting question is the most original one: "What is next in hull design?"

That was the main point... the discussion on this m.b. can and typically does jump around... but my curiousity was to find out what folks think the next direction might be that we collectively could address in the future.

I also think Lelands argument over on Boatertalk about reducing the "friendliness" of designs is an interesting one, I'm just not convinced that you can put the genie back in the bottle so easily once people have gotten used to easy-to-use boats.

Leland is a well rounded paddler... from squirt boats to creekers... heck he was most likely the first person to run 'Go Left' in an open canoe and he paddles the Upper Gauley in a squirt boat to amuse himself. His views might not always represent those of the masses but I've always enjoyed getting his take on things. That all being said read his comments after watching the link to one of his own 'old' videos regarding the new Loki... (disclaimer... he's a team Pyranha paddler)
http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1052338753/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not everyone out there cares about hucking themselves down a steep creek every weekend and not everyone cares about spending all day throwing McDonkeyNasty's at the local play hole. There are people out there (lot's of 'em really) that just enjoy paddling down a river, catching a few eddies, surfing a few waves and having fun in general... they don't want a spud boat and they don't need a creeker. Maybe they'd like to do a stern squirt, a rock spin, boof a ledge, drop into a hole for a sidesurf and a few cartwheels and carry on down the line in a boat that's comfortable and user-friendly. Frankly I'm glad to see kayaks coming back into fashion that are good river running boats, that aren't azz-kicka's and that might help paddlers regain the essential river skillz I feel were lost on a generation of boaters that strictly paddled spuds from playspot to playspot.

I feel what Shane did with boats like the Remix and Freeride and even what Jackson & Pyranha are coming out with aren't old boats that are difficult to paddle... they are updated versions of fun and sucessful boats from the past... with far better outfitting to boot.

What does the OC crowd want next?

I dunno... you're going to have to tell us.

[Shep]

I feel what Shane did with boats like the Remix and Freeride and even what Jackson & Pyranha are coming out with aren't old boats that are difficult to paddle... they are updated versions of fun and sucessful boats from the past... with far better outfitting to boot.

I definitely didn't read the Boatertalk thread thoroughly, and I don't know Leland, so it's quite possible I misinterpreted his statement in that thread. I think what you say here is exactly the point I was trying to make. That, even when old design themes come back into fashion (river-running hulls, as an example), the new ideas explored in last generations specialty boats get integrated, and this generations specialty boats tend to get a little more paddle-able as well. I feel like there will always be a gravity pulling us towards better and better "quiver-of-one" designs, be it skis or boats.


Shep

[Silent Bob]

We need a new "wonder material": lighter than poly, stronger than Royalex, cheaper than carbon/Kevlar, and easily repairable.


For the C1/OC1 crowd, there needs to be a manufacturing process that makes it economically feasible to produce boats in small numbers. Rotomolding, blow molding, and Thermoforming require a large amount of overhead in terms of equipment. Composites don't require a lot of equipment, but are very time and labor intensive. I think the ideal would be a low temperature spray in process. That would allow you to use a simple composite mold, hose it down with a liquid plastic, let it cure, and pop out a hull. (Think something along the lines of a truck bedliner.)


In terms of design, a mid-length all around river runner would be nice. 10'long, 26-27"wide, flat hull, moderate chines, decent hull speed. It might not be the ultimate play boat or the best steep creek boat, but it would be a fine river runner. The trick is to make it not too boring and yet not too hard to handle.

Not everyone out there cares about hucking themselves down a steep creek every weekend and not everyone cares about spending all day throwing McDonkeyNasty's at the local play hole. There are people out there (lot's of 'em really) that just enjoy paddling down a river, catching a few eddies, surfing a few waves and having fun in general... they don't want a spud boat and they don't need a creeker. Maybe they'd like to do a stern squirt, a rock spin, boof a ledge, drop into a hole for a sidesurf and a few cartwheels and carry on down the line in a boat that's comfortable and user-friendly.

I think that boat came out in 1993, it was the Cruise Control. Stable, comfortable, squirty, great creek boat. Only boat I've ever had that I felt comfortable paddling anywhere.

[Will]

I canoe alot, but am pretty much a newbi when it come to the white water end of it. As someone just looking into this end of the sport and not knowing the ins and outs of how much it cost to manufacture a boat my first thought was the price. To me the future of the sport is not only the material but the cost of the canoes. You can buy a brand new kayak for $800 - $1200 roughly. Tons of choices available. Now look at canoes, you can't come close to touching a new white water boat for $1200. To me very tuff to grow the sport when the average new outfitted boat is $1500 or more. To me Blackfly has come the closest to being competative with an outfitted boat at the right price to compete with the price of kayaks in the plastic market. Millbrook also seems to be priced great for the nitch composite market. The "next step" to me is find a way to bring the price of the boats to a more competative price to get people into the sport. More people into the sport will gain interest in manufactures finding a reason to pursue "whats next". Again just my 2 cents worth over my lunch break.

Gotta also give a nod to the comment about adjustable outfitting. I would have to think some manufacturer is thinking of this already. Hey, what about sealed bulkheads front and back of the saddle to avoid the need for airbags while I am thinking of stuff.... Back to lunch.