The Ocoee is going to very difficult to find- especially in Ontario.
Go plastic... the gorge/irvine/gull are unkind to royalex
Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
Dagger Ocoee. Steeper learning curve, better results
The Detonator is a good boat too, it's given birth to some gnar boaters just in PA
Furtrapper Phil has made the Green Narrows look easy in an Outrage, it's also a good boat.
But if I was making the choice, I'd go Ocoee, especially if it's Dagger.
The Detonator is a good boat too, it's given birth to some gnar boaters just in PA
Furtrapper Phil has made the Green Narrows look easy in an Outrage, it's also a good boat.
But if I was making the choice, I'd go Ocoee, especially if it's Dagger.
Chris Loomis
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
I would recommend against the Ocoee as a first boat. It's not an easy boat to master and I've seen people (myself included) who were turned off whitewater canoeing when put into an Ocoee early without an established skill set. I would go with the Detonator first, outrage second. If you decide to pass on the detonator, please pass the lead onto me as I know someone who is in the market for one.
I have an Outrage here locally if your son wants to try it out.
I have an Outrage here locally if your son wants to try it out.
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
I haven't paddled a Detonator so I won't comment on it. Between the Ocoee and the Outrage I too would go with the Outrage for a beginner. The Ocoee has a pretty sharp chine amidships whereas the Outrage is smoothly arched. I think it is easier to learn the basics without having to worry about catching an edge wrong.
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
Ocoee...
At 145lbs, he won't find it too edgy or anything.
At 145lbs, he won't find it too edgy or anything.
...
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
If you're truly interested in playboating one would wonder why no interest in an actual playboat?jfrimeth wrote:Can someone recommend what they suggest is best of these 3 for a young person to get into playboating?
JD
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
don't know if this discussion is completely dead or not, but...
when I wanted to go from paddling my 16ft tandem as solo to a bonifide solo playboat, back in '95 i went and did a bunch of research on hot hull designs, and the Ocoee was still reasonably new design, and i got GREAT reviews from some very experienced respected paddlers i knew about how awesome the Ocoee was.
So i picked one up from GwtF in Roswell GA... made some calls to TN and talked with designer, Frankie, to make sure i was outfitting it right... got it all set up and took it out.
I had a blast! -however, that boat kicked my arse for 2 seasons... and I was paddling 2-3 days a week back then.
I found it hard to Combat Roll because the amount of rocker caused the ends to twist and spin in the current making it near impossible to set up while upside-down ( and also because I hadn't perfected a combat roll ever before in any other river-craft), and a small 'lean' translated into a dramatic shift in direction (think Surfboard on a big ocean wave)... which meant peel-outs, if I wasn't right on my game dumped me... often.
-now I was paddling with some very nice people, who had become VERY good at retrieving my belongings and rescuing my boat... and I never found it discouraging, it was all in good fun, and when I was balanced just right, that boat was HELLA-FUN!
but... Patton's run at the top of the Nantahala was an accomplishment to catch an eddy halfway through and not swim.... and the Nantahala falls was pretty much a guaranteed swim for me, just running it straight through. (both are easy class III rapids if you've not paddled the Nanti)
After the 2nd season of regular river trips around the Southeast, but pretty much getting thrashed at least once per run, I saw an add for a used (very beat up) Dagger Rival... and bought it to help with the learning curve... bought that boat in November of '97
by the fall of '98... I could pretty much catch any eddy (regardless of how micro), my ferry skills were EXCEPTIONAL and i could pretty much 'climb' back up to almost any wave i was surfing on, I could not only run the Nantahala Falls flawelessly, but make 4 of the 5 main eddies mid-falls... side surf the bottom hole at will, and had a bomb-proof combat roll... and graduated from a regular on the Nantahala to a regular on the Ocoee (the river in TN not the boat).
-My Ocoee (the boat not the river) did not come out of the garage once that entire year.
Now, I loved that Ocoee (the boat not the river)... it was my first solo OC1... i cut all my teeth on it (and some shins and elbows) and after I learned how to properly control my Rival, it made the Ocoee a joy to paddle around in!
-so, to anyone who has never owned an Ocoee... If you have the means, I highly reccommend it! it is THE best boat I've ever paddled.
However, if you would classify your ability as anything under advanced intermediate... I'd pass on the Ocoee unless you have a paddling partner or two that will 'coach' you enough to get good at it.
if you're just an intermediate level boater... you will have more fun, more often, in an intermediate level boat.
So for your son, I would caution against getting him an Ocoee as a first boat... unless he's going to be paddling with someone who has lots of experience in a similar hull design to explain how to steer it by leaning it.
-on a side note... I sold the Ocoee at a Spring NOC sale, I think somewhere around 2001 for $650, but i still have my Dagger Rival... in fact I spent the winter re-building the foam core where there was separation in the Royalex... wait till you see these pictures... God Bless Gorilla Glue!
(Pics coming soon!)
good paddling!
~Kev
when I wanted to go from paddling my 16ft tandem as solo to a bonifide solo playboat, back in '95 i went and did a bunch of research on hot hull designs, and the Ocoee was still reasonably new design, and i got GREAT reviews from some very experienced respected paddlers i knew about how awesome the Ocoee was.
So i picked one up from GwtF in Roswell GA... made some calls to TN and talked with designer, Frankie, to make sure i was outfitting it right... got it all set up and took it out.
I had a blast! -however, that boat kicked my arse for 2 seasons... and I was paddling 2-3 days a week back then.
I found it hard to Combat Roll because the amount of rocker caused the ends to twist and spin in the current making it near impossible to set up while upside-down ( and also because I hadn't perfected a combat roll ever before in any other river-craft), and a small 'lean' translated into a dramatic shift in direction (think Surfboard on a big ocean wave)... which meant peel-outs, if I wasn't right on my game dumped me... often.
-now I was paddling with some very nice people, who had become VERY good at retrieving my belongings and rescuing my boat... and I never found it discouraging, it was all in good fun, and when I was balanced just right, that boat was HELLA-FUN!but... Patton's run at the top of the Nantahala was an accomplishment to catch an eddy halfway through and not swim.... and the Nantahala falls was pretty much a guaranteed swim for me, just running it straight through. (both are easy class III rapids if you've not paddled the Nanti)
After the 2nd season of regular river trips around the Southeast, but pretty much getting thrashed at least once per run, I saw an add for a used (very beat up) Dagger Rival... and bought it to help with the learning curve... bought that boat in November of '97
by the fall of '98... I could pretty much catch any eddy (regardless of how micro), my ferry skills were EXCEPTIONAL and i could pretty much 'climb' back up to almost any wave i was surfing on, I could not only run the Nantahala Falls flawelessly, but make 4 of the 5 main eddies mid-falls... side surf the bottom hole at will, and had a bomb-proof combat roll... and graduated from a regular on the Nantahala to a regular on the Ocoee (the river in TN not the boat).
-My Ocoee (the boat not the river) did not come out of the garage once that entire year.
Now, I loved that Ocoee (the boat not the river)... it was my first solo OC1... i cut all my teeth on it (and some shins and elbows) and after I learned how to properly control my Rival, it made the Ocoee a joy to paddle around in!
-so, to anyone who has never owned an Ocoee... If you have the means, I highly reccommend it! it is THE best boat I've ever paddled.
However, if you would classify your ability as anything under advanced intermediate... I'd pass on the Ocoee unless you have a paddling partner or two that will 'coach' you enough to get good at it.
if you're just an intermediate level boater... you will have more fun, more often, in an intermediate level boat.
So for your son, I would caution against getting him an Ocoee as a first boat... unless he's going to be paddling with someone who has lots of experience in a similar hull design to explain how to steer it by leaning it.
-on a side note... I sold the Ocoee at a Spring NOC sale, I think somewhere around 2001 for $650, but i still have my Dagger Rival... in fact I spent the winter re-building the foam core where there was separation in the Royalex... wait till you see these pictures... God Bless Gorilla Glue!
(Pics coming soon!)
good paddling!
~Kev
-You look cool, for a naked chick in a booth...
-
Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
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Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
is this in the wrong forum? 
Esquif Canoes Paddler-Designer-Shape Shifter
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
He ended up with a Detonator.
Re: Mad River Outrage vs Esquif Detonator vs Dagger Ocoee
Slow and royalex. Enjoy.
How did I become the author of this thread.
How did I become the author of this thread.
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