What's the most forgiving beginner boat still made?

[ohioboater]

I need to replace a couple of Impulses that are on their last legs. These will be used for students who are brand new to solo canoes and often brand new to class 1/2 as well. The Impulse was a great design for this type of paddler - not likely to dump them when they lean the wrong way, easy to keep on line as they learn boat control, but not super tracky.

Can anyone who has paddled an Impulse give me comparison data on either of these boats?

Esquif Vertige
Esquif Raven

I'm sure someone will recommend a Probe as well - it's in the running, too. I just don't need any comparison data, since I have years of experience in one.

[pblanc]

Well, Mohawk still makes the XL series and they are quite forgiving.

I haven't paddled the relatively new Wenonah Recon. Perhaps someone on this forum has. Judging from its hull shape and dimensions I would rather expect it to be pretty forgiving.

[DougB]

I would suggest the Esquif Vertige. I own one and use it for multi day WW river trips where I carry a lot of gear. When I introduce people to white water canoeing, I always let them use this boat first. It has even greater stability than the Probe 13.

[Shep]

XL-13 is my vote for most forgiving. The Vertige is also extremely forgiving, and a little bit higher performance, maybe. I would say both are good choices, and the decision could reasonably come down to price.

Shep

[esprit]

This may sound a bit controversial... but I would suggest one of the new plastic boats (L'Edge, Option, Phiend). They are stable, nimble, easy to move around. We teach beginners in L'edges and they end up running class 3 in a very short time. The learning curve is amazing.

Jim

[RodeoClown]

I gotta agree with Jim on this one (and I'm glad someone else said it first). If you were looking to replace a couple of Crossfires used for instruction, would you be looking for something similar, or would you be looking at the modern crop of boats?

[ian123]

Selling canoeing as a cool sport might be tough if you stick someone in a 13 ft barge... especially if they see others paddling the newish kayak designs... you might turn some people away right then and there. Basically what Jeremy said.

[Sir Adam]

If someone asked me what beginner boat to get the L'Edge would be the first to come to mind from all I've heard.

[Shep]

Jim and Jeremy make an interesting point. In both the L'Edge and Option, I was immediately struck by the primary stability. With the possibility that the Phiend may have strap outfitting from first introduction, that may be a strong contender for school boats.

Shep

[PAC]

My $.01 would be to go "new school"! I think they are actually much more forgiving then the "old school" more traditional designs.

Size out for different body types (ladies verse gents, etc.). L'edge / Option, verse Ion, etc.

My thinking is that plastic might last longer than ABS too (more durable & easily repairable - waiting on that new Pheind (SP? - LOL) ).

PS: Remember to show the Canoe Movies to get the newbies in the right frame of mind too!

Good luck!

[ohioboater]

My $.01 would be to go "new school"! I think they are actually much more forgiving then the "old school" more traditional designs.

This isn't directed just to Paul, here. Everyone who is on the side of short, hard chined creek/playboats for beginners: what exactly makes them more forgiving?

For the record, I've paddled a L'Edge and am hoping to try a Option some day. I had a ton of fun in the L'Edge, but I would only call it forgiving in comparison to something like a Prelude or an Ocoee.

[PAC]

NP Shawn! I'll just summarize my thoughts and let other get to the details. I believe that the new school boats have the exact same type of primary stability and pretty much the same as to secondary (note…are not Preludes)...

The real difference is the ability to move the boat around... tracking from point A to B and the like.. I think although they are different, that this is where the shorter boats add value in terms of learning curve.

If you put a keel on any of them they will track better in a straight line.... but for getting the hang of using the edges / shape I feel the newer boats do as good of job if not better. Plus smaller folks don't have to work as hard to get the boat to respond. Put a 100 female in a XL14 on class II to work some eddies and do some ferries and you'll hear some serious hate.

A prime example is the 3 kids at Slalom Nationals (ASCI). Sure they knew how to paddle a canoe (tandem teams prior to trying solo) but their skills jumped expediently once in the L’Edge. They went from tentative to cowabunga 2 rapids in on the course... jumping into holes they would have avoided an hour earlier. Have to believe that in that case size did matter.

PS: After paddling the BF, Ion, Option, Ledge, Maxim, etc. I have a couple long boats that will most likely sit in the shed for a VERY LONG TIME.

PSS: Also have to believe that there is a reason that all the big dog stout canoe runs being laid down now are related to the new choices in boats too.

[milkman]

I think there's also an argument for hull speed in a beginner boat, which some of the smaller PE boats may not have. I remember teaching a class that had two women in it who hadn't paddled before. They were paddling Esquif Nitros, not the slowest boat in the world, but certainly not the fastest either, nor known for its glide. Neither of them could create enough speed in the boats to break through the eddy line to practice peel outs. They didn't have the arm/torso strength. I ended up putting them in Outrages.

[madmike]

I teach canoe and kayak to college students, and have for 24 years. My students do far better now in playboat kayaks, and Mohawk Probes, than they ever did in things like the RPM/inazone, and the ME and Bluehole Sunburst. I think you should get modern boat designs.

[arhdc]

Just to add perspective here I'll chime in as a newbie with my experiences.

I think that the shorter modern boats have both strengths and weaknesses for beginners, the biggest being hull speed vs ease of maneuverability. I went from a 15' tandem classic canoe (set up for solo) to a 9'6" StinkeyeX (there is only one of them as far as I know) having never been in any other whitewater canoe before. I have since paddled a L'Edge and my impression was that it handles vary similarly to my boat, so for the sake of this discussion I feel that the analysis can carry over well.

Things that I like about learning in my small boat are that it catches eddies and surfs easily, it can fit into kayak sized eddies and follow most of the kayak lines, something that is helpful when running with kayaks. It is easy to spin and has good primary and secondary stability. Because it is small it is easy to muscle around a bit.

What I think is more challenging with the shorter more modern canoes is hull speed and learning a forward stroke. I am getting better with this, but for someone brand new it was very hard for me to get forward power in a sub 10' canoe wile maintaining control. Think peel outs and ferries as well as any attainments and the fact that working in current changes everything. This may not seem like that much of a problem but if it is all you can do to paddle forward, it is hard to focus on anything else and bad things start to happen. My impressions are that most more experienced boaters are largely unaware of this challenge because they learned in longer boats and then have moved to shorter boats after developing a skill set that made the transition easy. I think that in some cases a longer canoe may be easier to paddle, even if it has somewhat less stability, just because you can build up some speed easier. When I go from my StinkeyeX into something longer, like a Mohawk Shaman or an old Mad River Twister, they seem fast and very easy to paddle. Also, running with other newbies to the WW canoe, I can see them get away with things that I can't get away with in my boat, mainly because they are easier to drive forward.

Having said all of that, I like my short canoe, I would like to buy more short canoes and I think that my short canoe has made me better, faster than I would have been otherwise. Some of the things to consider are how long of a program are you going to be running and can you get a good enough forward stroke developed in the time that you have to be able to move on to other things. The short canoes are also cooler and many a kayaker sees my little boat and expresses the desire to try one out someday.

I would be torn if asked advice on a more modern short vs more traditional longer canoe for a beginner. I think that ideally I'd give them something longer to run for a time and then evaluate moving to something smaller. A lot would depend on the person also, if I thought that they would be able to tough it out and get through the initial learning curve then a smaller boat may be the way to go.