What's the most forgiving beginner boat still made?

[sbroam]

It's hard to make a canoe go straight - most of us have gotten the hang of it, but teaching and learning that most elemental of tricks can be challenging. Short boats don't help. But... I hate to recommend *buying* a long boat to a beginner. What I'm going to do next time I'm teaching somebody is put them in a longer boat (12'+) until they can make it go straight, then put them in a shorter boat (10' or so) until they can make that go straight, *then* a proper short boat. Hopefully we can get that out of the way in couple of hours And with boats they can borrow, not buy Now where did my daughter get to - she might be my test subject for this here idea...

[Craig Smerda]

I need to replace a couple of Impulses that are on their last legs. These will be used for students who are brand new to solo canoes and often brand new to class 1/2 as well. The Impulse was a great design for this type of paddler - not likely to dump them when they lean the wrong way, easy to keep on line as they learn boat control, but not super tracky.

Can anyone who has paddled an Impulse give me comparison data on either of these boats?

Esquif Vertige
Esquif Raven

I'm sure someone will recommend a Probe as well - it's in the running, too. I just don't need any comparison data, since I have years of experience in one.

can you tell us more about the type of rivers you'll be taking them out on?

I agree that a little hull speed combined with some decent tracking is more encouraging/rewarding to beginners (total newbs) that are trying to learn proper forward strokes without all of the extra correction 'rudders' being thrown in... plus if they develop good habits in a longer boat they might be less apt to toss in 'bonus rudders' once they do get into a shorter canoe.

in a perfect world... you'd have a long and short boat to teach with.

[jakke]

First of all, I don't like the term: beginner boat. Forgiving yes pleas, but beginner is so negative ... .

Second, it depends on what you want to be teaching.

Some designs suit one way of teaching (or topics) better then the others.
My choice for "longer" forgiving canoes would be
- probe 11
- raven
-> no vertige. It's kind of long, a bit slow turning and rather heavy to accelerate, especially with rather minimal technique.

Looking into the shorter designs:
- L'Edge
- Spanish Fly (actually quite stable!)
- haven't tried an Option or Phiend, but taking the comments they would do fine as well.

And Ideally you would have a mix of both, one session in the longer canoes for certain skills, and move to the shorter ones for other skills. But that is probably financially out of question.

[smbjs]

When we had our Adult School & our youth school last year, beginner paddlers preferred the Black Fly Option over all the other solo boats available and almost every classic solo was represented!

[Shep]

When we had our Adult School & our youth school last year, beginner paddlers preferred the Black Fly Option over all the other solo boats available and almost every classic solo was represented!

*Like*

[ohioboater]

can you tell us more about the type of rivers you'll be taking them out on?

Mid-Atlantic and southern class 2. Typical weekend class involves at least a couple hours on flatwater working strokes, then time in Ramcat on the Yough working eddy turns, ferries, s-turns, etc. Second day is the Casselman or Cheat Narrows if they are running (actually, if the Casselman is running, I'll do that on both days - great teaching river). Spring break class is a full week down south - Tuck, Nanty, Little T., top part of Sec. 3, etc.

Typical students have little or no moving water experience in any sort of craft, let alone a solo canoe. They're supposed to have flatwater experience/knowledge, but I've learned to assume that most of my students won't know diddly about strokes when I first meet them. Even the ones who claim to be summer canoe instructors often can't make a boat go straight without switching sides, and their first instinct is usually a gunnel grab when the boat gets wibbly-wobbly.

So keep that in mind - we're talking total beginners here. No riversense, no strokes, no concept of edging. And my preference is for them not to swim every time they do something wrong.

[Craig Smerda]

can you tell us more about the type of rivers you'll be taking them out on?

Mid-Atlantic and southern class 2. Typical weekend class involves at least a couple hours on flatwater working strokes, then time in Ramcat on the Yough working eddy turns, ferries, s-turns, etc. Second day is the Casselman or Cheat Narrows if they are running (actually, if the Casselman is running, I'll do that on both days - great teaching river). Spring break class is a full week down south - Tuck, Nanty, Little T., top part of Sec. 3, etc.

Typical students have little or no moving water experience in any sort of craft, let alone a solo canoe. They're supposed to have flatwater experience/knowledge, but I've learned to assume that most of my students won't know diddly about strokes when I first meet them. Even the ones who claim to be summer canoe instructors often can't make a boat go straight without switching sides, and their first instinct is usually a gunnel grab when the boat gets wibbly-wobbly.

So keep that in mind - we're talking total beginners here. No riversense, no strokes, no concept of edging. And my preference is for them not to swim every time they do something wrong.

gotcha'...

long boats:
Esquif Raven
Esquif Nitro
Mad River Outrage
Mohawk Probe 11

short boats:
Blackfly Option
Esquif L'edge
Mohawk Phiend

one thing that really limits the short PE boats for teaching is the outfitting and although I far prefer bulkheads over straps to get a wide variety of paddlers of various sizes into one boat for several years it's much easier to adjust a few straps than it is to fiddle with foam.

[arhdc]

I'm likely getting into deep water here as a less seasoned paddler but my perspective is different because of that so here goes.

I am not familiar with most of the rivers that you are running with your students so this is harder but there are some observations that I can make from my own experiences. I think that in general some of the slightly more traditional type WW designs (Probe, Raven) may be more in line with what you are doing for the beginners that you are teching. Having siad that there is also room for considering some of the smaller canoes (Option, L'Edge) IF those leading and instructing are always thinking, are they going to be able to make that ferry or break across that eddy line. If there are tough ferries on these runs that need to be made to run them then you are going to have swimmers. If there are eddies that are hard to break out of that you must lead them into in order to make the run, you are going to have frustrated students/swimmers. The progression for what you are asking them to do needs to change if you are going to use smaller boats.

It seems that you are mostly in line with my thoughts on this but the discussion has partially turned to a teaching philosophy one and I really feel that many of the seasoned paddlers have lost touch with the point that it is HARD to make a short boat move straight under power if everything is new. Sure, you can put an experienced slalom racer into a short canoe and they can really advance fast, but it is not all new to them. Likewise, you can put a newbie into a short canoe on the pond or an easy class I/II and have them like the little boat better than something longer, but put a newbie into a swirly eddy with a strong eddy line and tell them to ferry across the river to avoid the giant hole and things get exciting.

Our double bladed brotheren have a little bit easier path to follow with beginners in that it is not as hard to get forward power without loosing control, even with poor technique. I am basing my opinion on my own learning experience and maybe I am really just that much of a dunce (it's likely actually ). If I was not as comfortable swimming as I am (I was a competitive swimmer many years ago) and I wasn't as bullheaded as I am, I would have washed out and gone to a kayak. Also note that I had a few hundred miles in classic canoes on moving water before I started and I had run a classic canoe solo on a fair amount of class II whitewater before moving to my Stinkeye.

Note: I have never considered going to a kayak, I am too stubborn for that!!!

Just my pespective. Maybe the vast majority of students don't face these problems but I have.

Please also note, to my mentors that follow this board, you know who you are, this is NOT intended to beat up on you. You have all been great and I wouldn't change anything. My progression has been good for me, but truly, I am the most comfortable newbie swimmer I have yet to encounter. Hopefully I am much better than when you saw me last.

[Cheeks]

^^^^^^ THIS

I absolutely agree that as we progress, we forget or gloss over the learning baby steps we took to get there. I know I'm guilty of it. And the best teachers I've had are the guys who, while really good boaters, still remember what it was like to struggle and remembered why they struggled.

To that end, I say a boat like the Probe 11/12 - which I learned in, or a similar boat, is a good intro to canoeing boat. Then you step it up and get 'em into a L'Edge/Option/Phiend.

There is a difference between someone with lots of experience kayaking jumping into a new plastic canoe and being able to accelerate quickly, or someone who was a good flatwater canoeist and can translate those skills into a plastic canoe, versus someone who has no experience whatsoever.

[pblanc]

I don't have a lot of experience with the L'Edge but if I had to run the entire middle Yough or all of Section III of the Chattooga in that boat I would go insane. I suspect the same would be true of the Option or Phiend.

[Shep]

I am also not used to those rivers, but I am used to teaching. The perfect first practice eddy only requires a single stroke to accelerate across the eddy line (incoming or outgoing), has a distinct eddy line, and does not have enough flow to be sensitive about the angle you hit it at. Eddies that good aren't incredibly common, but when you get to pick the river you teach on, they are imminently findable. When you find this sort of eddy, it really doesn't matter if the student has a pretty crap forward stroke for them to experience an eddy turn and a peel out.

I have not taught never-evers in short boats, but the things that I think are most important for making a boat go straight aren't all about length, either. In my experience, boats that help a new paddler get to a good forward stroke are

• fit well to the student. wide enough to provide good primary stability, but narrow enough that the student doesn't struggle to have a vertical paddle shaft due to the boat.
• don't require too much power. Smaller boats for smaller paddlers, but also a hull needs have a reasonable balance of glide and/or easy acceleration. Students worried about getting up to speed often overpower their forward strokes, but having good acceleration can make for the lower glide of shorter hulls
• respond really well to sweep strokes. Students who get a big difference in the response of a sweep stroke vs a forward stroke get strong positive feedback. Shorter hulls should have an advantage in this.

Beyond these things, I usually find myself telling students to let their paddle hang back behind them, fully in the water, acting as a keel for a moment at the end of their forward stroke. Students often have to work hard to get most of their blade in the water, which is caused by not enough torso rotation. I find the "keel drag" to be an invaluable tool to help people keep their boat going reasonably straight while they are fine-tuning their forward stroke. Thats where having a little bit of momentum helps.

Shep

[leclercraven]

Both boats are good beginner boats. The Vertige is little longer and wider than the Raven and that's practical if you want to do some tripping. The Raven is shorter and a bit snappier with a bit less primary stability but better secondary stability. Excellent tracking and gliding, smooth and not too nervous.

[Wendy]

The Spanish Fly is a great beginner boat for children, teenage girls and small teenage boys. YOu want to see them smile- get them out of long boats- ask David Sink
I really like the L'Edge for teaching all ages and weights. I found the Option is an excellent boat, but I would not put a beginner in it if they weigh over 150 or so, unless they are aggressive. The Ion is also excellent for younger, smaller people to start OC1, as well as those of us up to 200 pounds. Where I found it really hooks people is putting a kayaker in an Ion who wants to switch. This has also been true for the L'Edge if the paddler is a river runner/creeker.
My 2 cents As far as long boats the Probe 12 (once called 12II) or 11

[youngwillyd]

According to the Esquif site the Raven is wider than the Vertige. I haven't gotten to paddle a Raven but I did like the Vertige when I got to test paddle it. One thing I didn't see mentioned so far was some students typically are more aggressive than others in a class. If you are able maybe at least one short boat for the more aggressive students to work with. You could also get a BF Octane 92. You could wisper in the ear of the student and tell them what they need to do next.

[clarion]

Agree with arhdc. Little to no WW water experience and very short boat is a recipe for brain overload. Many (most?) forget how intimidating and near impossible it is to apply pure power in a WW boat at first, add to that all the other stuff coming at you that you just don't have experice with. Your brain just hasn't taken in enough data yet and you have no reflexes. Everything is conscious. Also vouch that arhdc is one stubborn SOB.