OC1s: Rival vs. Outrage
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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GailR
Hiya Scott, yup, it's me, that would be quite a load in my barrel to get to 200 eh. Pat, the Rival is deffinately a displacement hull, round, you feel it in the initial stability. The Outrage has the same rocker as an ocoee but longer. Soft chines like the rival. Have you had one out, or viewed one close up? I know you can get pictures on line but if you'd like snaps with a tape measure to pick up on specifics let me know. We have talked before through CCR, Stew my husband has paddled my boat and doesn't find the boat wet (185-90lbs) It is a little cramped for him but the outfitting is a 7in saddle and pegs set for a 5'3" person, and he's 6'1". I can't remember what boat you are coming from so I can't comment on differences there. I've noticed more Outrages on the river now that Dagger has left the market. It's a great begginer to high intermediate boat and I don't expect that I'll out-grow it. I've heard a rumor, yes the word is rumor, that Esquif is thinking about designing a boat for the Rival market now that they have the Spark and Taureau out there for the high end paddlers so you might want to look into that if you are going retail and have some time to wait. If you have any other questions drop us a line Pat. canoesrock@hotmail.com
the outrage--not a wet boat
I agree, the outrage, which I have, has not treated me too wetly. It turns well because the extreme rocker, and also keeps the boat reasonably dry at 160 lbs. Kind of rolly polly due to the rounded hull shape. But a great boat to advance intermediate I suppose. I really do like lighter boats though and a little more edge to the chine is obvious for more advanced boating. But all around for your basic open-boater, it's great.
wouldn't mind trying the rumba with a heavier kevlar layup. After being in a lighter boat--what a great feel.
wouldn't mind trying the rumba with a heavier kevlar layup. After being in a lighter boat--what a great feel.
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yarnellboat
Thanks Gail et. al., Just collecting thoughts on the Rival because one is for sale and I know they are not made anyone. I paddled a Rival only briefly a few times. I've got one season in an Outrage, my current boat.
Like others seem to, I prefer the Outrage by a surprising margin considering they appear to be similar designs. I agree the Outrage feels lighter and more responsive. Didn't mean to imply the Outrage was a soaker, just agree that it may not be as dry as the Rival, which feels wider and deeper.
For the record, outside-to-outside my Outrage with vinyl gunwales does measure 25.5"
Cheers, Pat.
Like others seem to, I prefer the Outrage by a surprising margin considering they appear to be similar designs. I agree the Outrage feels lighter and more responsive. Didn't mean to imply the Outrage was a soaker, just agree that it may not be as dry as the Rival, which feels wider and deeper.
For the record, outside-to-outside my Outrage with vinyl gunwales does measure 25.5"
Cheers, Pat.
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GailR
Ahhhhhhhh...... now that changes the discussion, The Rival as a second boat or replacement to the Outrage. As a second boat, it would be roughly in the same class. A second boat choice might be a phantom or a zoom, ocoee etc( the Spark appears to be an amasing Slalom boat, looks like all correction work is done in the front as to not kill the momentum, I have watched good paddlers in the boat, enough to judge that it's outside my skill level right now)....... Something with chines and actual hard edges for serious playing with features and using the current and boat placement more than paddle strokes to get you where you want to go.
I'll mention this web discussion to a couple of our club paddlers that would roughly be in your weight class. The club added a Detanator and a Outrage to the fleet this year and the stats suggest it was one of the more popular boats, seeing as much time as the best Rival. The long term value of the rival will depend (in my hiumble opinion)on wether 1. Esquif (or any other inovator)decides to put something in that class, 2.if Bell strengthens their supply network to Canada and gets realistic with the pricing on the Prodigy(last time I checked it was several hundred more for that hull than any other OC1). In short, if the number of choices in the sparce beginner-intermediate class stays the same, then the value of used older design boats will stay solid. Rival is a good boat but not the best of class.
I'll mention this web discussion to a couple of our club paddlers that would roughly be in your weight class. The club added a Detanator and a Outrage to the fleet this year and the stats suggest it was one of the more popular boats, seeing as much time as the best Rival. The long term value of the rival will depend (in my hiumble opinion)on wether 1. Esquif (or any other inovator)decides to put something in that class, 2.if Bell strengthens their supply network to Canada and gets realistic with the pricing on the Prodigy(last time I checked it was several hundred more for that hull than any other OC1). In short, if the number of choices in the sparce beginner-intermediate class stays the same, then the value of used older design boats will stay solid. Rival is a good boat but not the best of class.
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GailR
One thing I forgot to mention is that a couple paddlers that have taken my boat down some features for me have commented that it felt a little like a Rival but that's in the context that they were either Ocoee or Zoom owners, so I surmise that the performance difference between the Rival and the Outrage is not as much as the difference between the two classes of boats.
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yarnellboat
Yeah, a 2nd boat. I thought the Rival on eBay might have gone really cheap, and that I could try it and re-sell one, or hang onto it in case my girlfriend gets into solo paddling.
The price went high enough that I'll wait until I come across something more interesting, like with hard-chines, or a C-1 or a tandem playboat.
Thanks, P.
The price went high enough that I'll wait until I come across something more interesting, like with hard-chines, or a C-1 or a tandem playboat.
Thanks, P.
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Guest
Yarnellboat
I've paddled Gail's Outrage serval times, as well as the rival. I'm 6' and 190. Personally I feel the Outrage is a better boat. It is not a wet boat with my weight and is very quick.
The Outrage will go from tilt to tilt much quicker, carves better, and turns faster then the Rival.
The Rival is more stable and slightly faster.
Both of these boat have different characteristic and design so try them yourself.
Personally I prefer an Ocoee which is another option you could look at or the new taureau. It's a need boat and much faster then it looks. I was very impressed with it.
Steward
I've paddled Gail's Outrage serval times, as well as the rival. I'm 6' and 190. Personally I feel the Outrage is a better boat. It is not a wet boat with my weight and is very quick.
The Outrage will go from tilt to tilt much quicker, carves better, and turns faster then the Rival.
The Rival is more stable and slightly faster.
Both of these boat have different characteristic and design so try them yourself.
Personally I prefer an Ocoee which is another option you could look at or the new taureau. It's a need boat and much faster then it looks. I was very impressed with it.
Steward
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Wendy
please comment on Taureau Stewart
Stewart, If you have paddled it would you comment on more on how wet, tracking, etc. Thanks.
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Guest
Flat water only, it was fast and track pretty well for a short boat.
I watched Mark, Andrew and Paul surfing and playing on the Ottawa for awhile as well and it was a very dry boat compared to the other open boats there (detonator, ocoee, quake, rival) That said, I'm sure the quality of paddlers helped.
Steward
I watched Mark, Andrew and Paul surfing and playing on the Ottawa for awhile as well and it was a very dry boat compared to the other open boats there (detonator, ocoee, quake, rival) That said, I'm sure the quality of paddlers helped.
Steward
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Guest
A couple of things if I may. we should watch the class or how we class boats. Is the Outrage in the same class as the Rival? yes! Along with the Viper, Ocoee, Probe and the Nitro and a few others.
Would I throw the Detonator in different class? Yes ! Lets say sub 10 ?? along with the Maxium, Phatom and Zoom. These boats I would not suggest to novice solo boaters. And in that class I would have to say the Zoom would take the most time to tame! It`s taken me this whole season to realy get the feel for this boat and to paddle it for what it was designed for, tech class III /IV.
Ahhh the Taureau.... a different animal again !! If you like planing hulls such as the Spanish Fly, you`ll love the Taureau !!
Almost the same boat but much dryer !! I paddled it down on the Moose with Mark , Paul and Andrew. And mine should be ready by next month !
The Spark ? As Gail said a race boat. Your right Gail you will paddle this( or correct ) boat from the bow, but its has to do with turning more than the lost of momentum. Because of the degree of rocker in the stern, stern corrections ( draws or prys )don`t respond well, the back of the boat just doesn`t want to engage... shall we say? But it will respond to offside tilts.
Cheers Al Greve
Would I throw the Detonator in different class? Yes ! Lets say sub 10 ?? along with the Maxium, Phatom and Zoom. These boats I would not suggest to novice solo boaters. And in that class I would have to say the Zoom would take the most time to tame! It`s taken me this whole season to realy get the feel for this boat and to paddle it for what it was designed for, tech class III /IV.
Ahhh the Taureau.... a different animal again !! If you like planing hulls such as the Spanish Fly, you`ll love the Taureau !!
Almost the same boat but much dryer !! I paddled it down on the Moose with Mark , Paul and Andrew. And mine should be ready by next month ! The Spark ? As Gail said a race boat. Your right Gail you will paddle this( or correct ) boat from the bow, but its has to do with turning more than the lost of momentum. Because of the degree of rocker in the stern, stern corrections ( draws or prys )don`t respond well, the back of the boat just doesn`t want to engage... shall we say? But it will respond to offside tilts.
Cheers Al Greve
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yarnellboat
Who'd have thought the Outrage and Rival would generate much discussion.
Length aside, I don't know that I'd put the Ocoee and Viper in the same "class" as Rival, Outrage, Probe and Nitro, because of the harder chines.
For example, I think most beginners would feel more confident in a Detonator than a Viper or Ocoee.
Wish I could comment on the Zoom or Taureau, but those TechIII-IV+ boats are well beyond my needs/abilities! (As I said on CCR Al, I'd be up for a canoe lesson any time! Paul Mason did some classes out here about 2 years ago - maybe it's time for another eastern instructor or 2 to come for a tour!?)
Cheers, Pat.
Length aside, I don't know that I'd put the Ocoee and Viper in the same "class" as Rival, Outrage, Probe and Nitro, because of the harder chines.
For example, I think most beginners would feel more confident in a Detonator than a Viper or Ocoee.
Wish I could comment on the Zoom or Taureau, but those TechIII-IV+ boats are well beyond my needs/abilities! (As I said on CCR Al, I'd be up for a canoe lesson any time! Paul Mason did some classes out here about 2 years ago - maybe it's time for another eastern instructor or 2 to come for a tour!?)
Cheers, Pat.
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guest
OC1s: Rival vs. Outrage
While we're on the subject---I've been wondering how sensitive the Outrage is to upstream winds, what with the high ends and rocker. My understanding is that the blunt, low ends of most whitewater canoes (like the Rival) were an attempt to achieve buoyancy in the bow without windage. The Outrage and Ocoee seem to have a different approach, and I'm curious as to how much of a trade=off that makes. I don't know if upstream winds are much of an issue back east, but here on the coast of Northern California, they can be hellacious in the spring, on a bad day. Most of the rivers flow NNW, right into the teeth of the prevailing winds.
Anyone with an opinion?
thanks for all the previous info--I'm on the verge of buying an Outrage
Randle
Anyone with an opinion?
thanks for all the previous info--I'm on the verge of buying an Outrage
Randle
Windage
I can't compare windage between a Rival and an Outrage except to say that my freinds in Rivals don't seem much happier than I in my Outrage when the wind starts blowing us around.
For me wind is a good reason to paddle the Slasher (or any other decked boat for that matter)
For me wind is a good reason to paddle the Slasher (or any other decked boat for that matter)
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GailR
Al, good to hear from you again! So you've ordered a Taureau eh? Man, like to see your garage sometime, you've got all the toys The zoom is quite the machine eh! There's a couple owners in our club and they are having a time of it. Amasing looking boat in big water. BUT, if you are willing to stick with it, swim alot (roll would be a good thing to have) and put alot of time in the boat then an intermediate could move into it. Strict begginer like me....no. As for putting the nitro (tank) in the same class as the Ocoee....that would be very large ends of the bell curve for the class. Det, that's one slow boat, unless you are going from rapid to rapid or park and play she looks frustrating, I only paddled it once for a short while and I found it very squirley on the tracking but at this stage of the game I'm running more than playing so my opinion shouldn't be weighted too heavily.
As for WIND and the Outrage. Yes, you feel it, the better your boat control, the less of a frustration but it can be a workout. The first time I took my boat out this spring I had a heck of a time getting it to go forward into a wind tuckered me to the point I had to switch off with a tandem paddler to get the last few clicks of flatwater finished.
The zoom is quite the machine eh! There's a couple owners in our club and they are having a time of it. Amasing looking boat in big water. BUT, if you are willing to stick with it, swim alot (roll would be a good thing to have) and put alot of time in the boat then an intermediate could move into it. Strict begginer like me....no. As for putting the nitro (tank) in the same class as the Ocoee....that would be very large ends of the bell curve for the class. Det, that's one slow boat, unless you are going from rapid to rapid or park and play she looks frustrating, I only paddled it once for a short while and I found it very squirley on the tracking but at this stage of the game I'm running more than playing so my opinion shouldn't be weighted too heavily. As for WIND and the Outrage. Yes, you feel it, the better your boat control, the less of a frustration but it can be a workout. The first time I took my boat out this spring I had a heck of a time getting it to go forward into a wind tuckered me to the point I had to switch off with a tandem paddler to get the last few clicks of flatwater finished.