Salsa

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:12 pm

Sean, nice pic. What waterfall is that in your post?

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:25 am

Dooleyoc-1 wrote:Sean, nice pic. What waterfall is that in your post?

Thanks

It's the 12 footer on the Back Fork of the Elk in WV. I think there were six or seven varying in height from 4 to 12 ft.
A great run with enough H20!
I'll try to find the rest of my pics of it and post them 4 U.

Randy Dodson · Post by **Randy Dodson** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:43 pm

mshelton wrote:Yeah, the paddling community was begging for a Nitro with edges or a Zephyr with a blunt nose designed by someone who about as far removed from modern canoeing as one can get. Enter the paradigm, innovation at it's finest but I guess there are a good ammount of old dried up foote fans out there that will gladly slap down some cash to have a boat with his name on it,even if it is a dug-out turd.

Oh well.

I'm just curious here. Do you really hate the Paradigm so much or just Bob Foote? To me the boat looks like it has lines similar to a Mohawk Viper and since I'm looking for my next boat, I'm kinda wondering if the Paradigm might be worth a test drive.

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:14 pm

Not sure if the Paradigm is comparable to the Viper, (haven't paddled a paradigm), but 'Rapid Magazine' did a report on it in their last issue and by the looks of it it's a boat that's more geared to the beginner/intermediate paddler and also to someone that is paddling the way Bob Foote teaches it.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

Post by **sbroam** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:33 pm

Randy Dodson wrote:...To me the boat looks like it has lines similar to a Mohawk Viper and since I'm looking for my next boat, I'm kinda wondering if the Paradigm might be worth a test drive.

I saw one at the NOC a while back - the chines in the center are not just hard, they are right-angle-90-degree square. The bottom and sides were flat like a euclidean plane. Not sure how that will play out with the beginner/intermediate crowd. One of the things I like about the Viper and similar is the flare to the hull. Understand, I didn't paddle it, I just looked at it.

Randy Dodson · Post by **Randy Dodson** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:55 pm

thanks guys. I also saw the one at NOC recently and thought it would be worth testing out sometime. With those chines, I thought it was definitely a departure from other Foote designs. Did not look beginner friendly.

I'm going to see Eli next month so maybe I'll get to paddle one.

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:53 am

If you put a Zephyr and a Paradigm side by side the chines on the Zeph are actually sharper. guessing it has to do with the twintex molding process.

mshelton · Post by **mshelton** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:35 pm

So why would you get a paragrimakeet?

The Zeph is a newer design, has similar edges and a superior material.

Randy Dodson · Post by **Randy Dodson** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:15 pm

I don't know if I'd get one or not until I've paddled it. I've got a friend who paddles a Zephyr and even after using the adhesive that they finally said would work on it, he is still having trouble keeping his D rings down.

I've paddled it, surfed it and liked it pretty well, just not sure it's what I want to put my hard earned cash down on yet.

What I'd really like to get is a new Prelude but I won't have the cash for a boat for about 2 more months and I'm sure whatever Preludes are left will be gone by then. My local Pyranha dealer would gladly let me pay it out over the next 2 or 3 months but he said he can't get any more since they've stopped making them.

mshelton · Post by **mshelton** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:29 pm

Check boatertalk.com gearswap;

http://www.boatertalk.com/gear-detail.php?gid=33000

I don't know if thats a good price but it's claimed to be new.

As for the D rings, the ones holding the bags in Squeaky's came out but with the bulkhead he just continued the lacing back to the front and back thwarts that hold the bulkhead down and the bags stay in fine.

padlcnu · Post by **padlcnu** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:04 pm

"designed by someone who about as far removed from modern canoeing as one can get."

I am interested to hear what "moderin canoeing" is and how it differs from other canoeing.

Just curious.

Randy Dodson · Post by **Randy Dodson** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:07 pm

Hey thanks for the heads up mshelton. the Prelude on boatertalk was from an outdoor store in GA. the boat is new, $1125, free shipping and is now ALL MINE

Just this once I think using a credit card was justified.

mshelton · Post by **mshelton** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:05 pm

Glad you scored a boat Randy.

As for "modern canoeing" I'd say creeking, playing, rodeo, freestyle, drops, boofing, even simple stuff like spinning in a wave/hole and rolling up if you goof up, also not wanting the hordes of drooling buttboat tards cheering for you when you do so, boats such as the Zoom, Salsa, Blackfly, CUFly, bulkhead outfitting, anything other than "big water" and overall not acting like a piece of feminine hygiene equipment.

Walsh · Post by **Walsh** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:03 pm

mshelton wrote:As for "modern canoeing" I'd say creeking, playing, rodeo, freestyle, drops, boofing, even simple stuff like spinning in a wave/hole and rolling up if you goof up, also not wanting the hordes of drooling buttboat tards cheering for you when you do so, boats such as the Zoom, Salsa, Blackfly, CUFly, bulkhead outfitting, anything other than "big water" and overall not acting like a piece of feminine hygiene equipment.

I still don't understand polarizing effect conjured by mentioning Mr. Foote's name. I took a weekend intermediate course with Bob in May (my first formal solo WW instruction after some years of paddling) and was generally impressed. Despite what you mention above, the class of eight included a Skeeter (yours truly) and a Zoom, and Bob took the time to work with the two of us on timing our 360 spins, bracing when sidesurfing the onside, and if the students were willing and the air warmer, we would have fine-tuned rolling. From his more conventional lessons on efficiency and stroke technique, I nailed a few tricky attainments in a boat that hardly attains. That felt even better than the spins.

I guess as the line blurs between open and decked boats, definitions of canoeing will diverge, and I'm cool with that. Bob's made a conscious choice to focus on the art of paddling an 11 or 12' open boat with extreme efficiency, which to me has a different kind of appeal than paddling something that can go big. He was pretty frank that paddling decked c-boats is a different game, and encourages folks to pick one or the other

Is he the only canoe innovator and pedagogue to speak of? Of course not. Does he put a lot of thought into what he teaches? I believe so. He's a big experimentor, and not afraid to revise his ideas. I'm no judge of whether he's a great canoist or not, but I've spent some time in outdoor education, and he is one hades of a teacher and a listener. Blaming him for being self-promoting is akin blaming a politician for the same fault . . . i.e. you can't get a gig as a full-time canoeist if you don't self-promote.

An interesting tidbit was that creating a mold for a twin-tex boat costs upwards of $200,000 US. That's why the Zephyr is high-er performance, but friendly to intermediate paddlers - they need to sell a lot of them, so it needs wide appeal. The more cutting edge a design, the tougher it is to sell enough to offset the design costs. That's the real curse of c-boating - we like being elitists (come on, to some degree at least

), which means there can't be a million of us, and our small numbers mean we lack buying power.

That, and some of us never buy new boats anyway . . .

mshelton · Post by **mshelton** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Outstanding, you like bob, congrats.

l2read

This post was originally about a new boat not being produced and a boat designed by bob, which looks much like an existing superior boat (read Zeph) which makes no sense to me and a few others unless there was/is an attempt to promote sales of the new boat by exploiting the bob fans and their willingness to buy a bob-boat.

If you like bob, fine, buy his boat or make a shrine to celebrate his greatness or name your child bob or your pet or your car or don't.

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Salsa

Modern Canoeing????