Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

[SkeeterGuy86]

Ditto what Louie says, dont make mistakes, dont need no roll.

Boat control, and knowing whats goin to happen before you hit somethin goes a long way toward that.

i have to agree with both of these paddlers ... i first met Louie when he was taking his family down a ripple of a river ... when i was with my friends helping with a canoe school for the Boy Scouts ...

i agree with LongBoat because the skeeter has been the boat of choice for me for almost 9 years ... i was about 13 when i learned boat control (note: learned it the hard way - was put in the skeeter and told to play)

i would love to learn to roll ... and have no fear of swimming ... that being said i will paddle up to a class IV with no thoughts of backing down .... only because i know my boat and i know what i can do to the boat to get a reaction out of it ....

hmmm might have to look up that roll video but sadly i learn better with someone in the water saying here is what is going to happen and how to correct and execute the roll

that and i finally got a better paddle than the $10 paddle i bought in 1998 lol ... still use that paddle as a spare ( if i can find someone with a big boat thats willing to carry the extra weight of my paddle)

btw Richard i might take you up on that offer ... thanks for offering it

[Atucky]

Golder,

Let's hit the next roll session at UNCA.

While my roll is about 50%, my shoulder is feeling much better, and I'm ready to start working on it again.

[TheKrikkitWars]

The people I've "grown up" paddling with, genuinely wouldn't take me on a river above class 2 with a bit of 3 without a decent roll and I absolutely agree, every swim is a drain on the time, energy and resources of the entire group. Swimming in a preventable situation (such as when any competent paddler could be expected to roll) is thus selfish.

I've automatically carried this across to my Open Canoing, It helps some what, that my first canoe was a CU fly, and after getting it, I spent a month of getting out and trying to learn basic freestyle (spins, cartwheels, loops, blunts) in it; with somewhat limited success I might add.

If someone comes to me to learn canoeing of some sort, I teach them to: release the straps, goon stroke, sweep stroke, ROLL, offside stroke, bracing, bow draw/rudder, J stroke.

Teaching the basic skills gives people a basic understanding of the mechanics of using the boat, the roll then equips them to learn the fundimental techniques that will allow them to put the boat where they want it, quickly and with lots of experimentation as to what's right with them, and it makes them agressive paddlers who are unafraid to commit.

Of course, people coming into whitewater canoeing in the UK seem to be either kayakers, or traditional canoeists who've been on flat water mainly and want to do something "more exciting". Wanting to go for a pootle with the family is not as significant an entry point for people becoming paddlers.

[Paddle Power]

This discourse is rolling along.

Jim Michaud wrote

If you swim your problems have just started.
If you roll your problems have just ended.

Well Stated.

For playing, rolling is wonderful.
For safety, rolling is helpful.

WRT Rolling
OC1, can start without it, easier to exit.
C1, easier, learn sooner, it opens the door to more paddling.

To learn rolling first? Similar to learn solo before tandem?

[Louie]

As far as not takin someone on a III plus with out a roll I think is a bunch of bull. To began with you don't take someone along you let them go. If they go they are told a head of time that it is every man for himself If you get in to deep dodo don't exspect anything but good footage out of us. Ya if it is life or death and it won't put us in danger or if we not surfin or sumthin we migh come after you. Of course as slow as we go a consistant swimmer won't be any problem with us. With Dick needin to stop every other rapid to strech his legs or smoke a cig. we don't go very fast. This whitewater stuff is a personal choice and everyone is entitled to make their own stupid choices. Here in the southeast I can name 20 or 30 dam good paddlers, much better than me that I paddled with when they weren't that good and I was on stuff with them that was way over their heads at the time. If you live you tend to get better or at least learn where your top level is. After do the Hiawussee thirty time and them be watchin a group head off to Turtletown Creek while you stay with the numbie on the Hiawussie for the thirty first time ain't really goin to make you any better.At the least you won't even get any better at swimmin.

[yarnellboat]

Longboatin' & Skeeterguy,

Nobody ever said learning to roll is an alternative to learning good boat control! Do both.

If you really never ever flip and are happy paddling what you paddle, then that's great for you, but most people flip once in a blue moon, and might also be interested in pushing themselves to try harder moves, catch smaller eddies and surf more features.

The process of learning to roll helps people fine-tune their upper- and lower-body separation and take control their boats/edges while paddling.

As good as your ability to find dry lines and stay upright might be, why wouldn't you also want to have a roll in your backpocket? It's not a party trick, it's just an interesting canoe stroke to learn.

Learning to roll will help keep you upright even more, as it's the best way to improve your braces.

To me, the single biggest benefit of learning rolling (and teaching it to others) has been the reduced frequency of swims because of better low braces!

Pat.

[golder]

adam--i'm all about the roll sessions. been trying to get another open boater to help me thru the motions. have a copy of 'solo playboating' that harrison loaned me, can't seem to track down a working vhs player to watch it on though....unca pool is out till mid january, but the y should still be good to go. lets get to the pool.

by the way, kricketwars: what exactly are you referring to as a 'goon stroke'?

[gumpy]

my low brace sucked until i learned to roll. so you depend on the roll for a bit, then get better and depend on the brace for a bit, then get better still and not need to use either very much. but still glad to throw down when need be.

[Craig Smerda]

If you swim your problems have just started.
If you roll your problems have just ended.

Well said Jim [img]http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif[/img]

Better a boat full of water than a bunch of bumps, cuts and broken bits.

[driftwood]

actually

In all of the programs I have worker in we put off teaching rolling as long as possible for both canoes and kayaks.

You don't need a roll if you don't have the basics (you will just flip again if you do get it and most beginners get stressed out in real ww and can't pull it off).

John

[philcanoe]

The people I've "grown up" paddling with, genuinely wouldn't take me on a river above class 2 with a bit of 3 without a decent roll and I absolutely agree, every swim is a drain on the time, energy and resources of the entire group. Swimming in a preventable situation (such as when any competent paddler could be expected to roll) is thus selfish.

The people I've "grown up" paddling with, genuinely want me to take their friends on a river above class 2 with a bit of 3, but mostly 4's and 5's. And don't care if i'm without a decent roll and I absolutely agree, every swim is a drain on the time, energy and resources of the entire group. Flipping in a preventable situation (such as when any competent paddler could be expected to not flip and have) is thus selfish.

Just paraphrasing for the fun of it - I'm sure you'd rather not have to use your roll.

I'd rather take a solid boater, that I don't think will get hammered, than one that I'm certain will roll. I base group dynamics on the ability to stay upright. Maybe that's just a difference in staying more on steep creeks. Upside down sucks, regardless of whether rolling or not, one just sucks less. I've seen too many think a roll, is their ticket down a river and to safety.

However the question was.....Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned...

teach them to: release the straps, goon stroke, sweep stroke, ROLL, offside stroke, bracing, bow draw/rudder, J stroke.

I believe he nailed that part, you have to learn it all. And only include learning how to swim, unless that's what you meant by release the straps, goon stroke. My roll usually works when I need it, when pressure is enough. I simply find my wore out shoulders don't like it, and so just as soon try not to use it. It's good technique that counts most... A brace is just a brace, and a roll just a roll.... it's what you do with both that counts.... and to be brutally honest find proper paddling, beats all that low bracing or rolling.

And while this is quite the good quote:

If you swim your problems have just started.
If you roll your problems have just ended.

The question was.....Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned...

to which I reply. Maybe because of tradition, but maybe because.... A roll will not make up for a lack of ability, just the lack of stability.

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Why would you not teach a roll as a basic part of paddling? It seems to be safer than swimming, it will give you a very strong low brace, it teaches you where your tipping point truely is, and it gives you the confidence that will allow you to relax while on the water. I was taught everything but the roll, it was thought as a cool trick. The day I learned to roll improved my paddling more than almost anything else. I agree with the other posters, not to teach the roll as a fundamental is retarded. The old school teaching that says it is unneeded is wrong. It is a stroke/technique that should be taught as a fundemental.

[Mr.DeadLegs]

If executed properly it will not damage your shoulders. I can tell when my form is off, your shoulders will tell you you are doing something wrong.

[marclamenace]

The question was.....Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned...

to which I reply. Maybe because of tradition, but maybe because.... A roll will not make up for a lack of ability, just the lack of stability.

Love that one!

Learn to use that paddle, d___ it!

[Louie]

Learnin a bomb proof roll will not prevent you from swimmin, it will just lower the number of times you have to do it.

paddles brake, outfittin fails, every now and then God will just reach down and pull you out of your boat. Learn your roll and come to depend on it but when you are at the top of some rapid scoutin it don't say to yourself well if it go bad I can roll, say well if it goes bad I can swim it. The guide line for runnin a rapid need to be not am I willin to roll in it but rather am I willin to swim in it. I don't care if you ain't swim in five years you are goin too. Remember there ain't the horse what can be rode and there ain't the ridder that can't be throwed