C-1 vs. Whitewater Kayak
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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Steven
C-1 vs. Whitewater Kayak
Looking for (and not finding) a little education on the difference between a C-1 boat and a whitewater kayak. Surfing the web I've even found them listed on a single page with no differentiation. So my question is, is there a difference, or is it just a matter of what type of paddle you choose to use?
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sbroam
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i'll take a stab
This sounds like a challenge to put up a page with words and pictures to compare the various craft... I might take a crack at that later.
In the mean time -
Kayak - paddled while sitting with a double bladed paddle, generally the seat is at or near the floor level. Spotting tip - the cockpit is more oval (front to back) and the paddler sits low.
Canoe - can be paddled kneeling (both knees down) , sitting (near floor level or a bit higher), or in a high kneel (1 knee up in front, one down) but almost always with a single bladed paddle fitted with a t-grip.
C-1 - a decked variation on the canoe, paddled in a kneeling position with a single blade. Fitted with a sprayskirt as kayaks are. Spotting tip - round cockpit, paddler sits higher.
Most "purpose built" C-1s in production these days are slalom models - 4 meters long and made from composite materials. A C-1 built for a similar purpose as a given kayak will be a little wider (26"+) and maybe a little longer - for stability and speed (to some extent).
Where confusion can come in is with a conversion - a kayak that has had its seat removed and a pedestal (and other hardware added) for kneeling added. The hull is the same, but now it is a C-1 and the paddler will use a single blade.
Recreational paddlers looking for plastic boats, like the kayakers are all paddling, can look for older models or the one model currently in production (the Robson Finkenmeister). Or... they can convert a kayak hull. Kayak designs in the last 5-6 years have gotten wider and shorter - wide is good for stability; the length is bad for speed , but good for play/maneuverability.
I think it is time for a page with some side by side shots...
Scott
ps - and that ignored the distinction between OC-1, C-2, OC-2, OC-1 when it means an outrigger canoe, C-1 when it means an open canoe for marathon, etc...
In the mean time -
Kayak - paddled while sitting with a double bladed paddle, generally the seat is at or near the floor level. Spotting tip - the cockpit is more oval (front to back) and the paddler sits low.
Canoe - can be paddled kneeling (both knees down) , sitting (near floor level or a bit higher), or in a high kneel (1 knee up in front, one down) but almost always with a single bladed paddle fitted with a t-grip.
C-1 - a decked variation on the canoe, paddled in a kneeling position with a single blade. Fitted with a sprayskirt as kayaks are. Spotting tip - round cockpit, paddler sits higher.
Most "purpose built" C-1s in production these days are slalom models - 4 meters long and made from composite materials. A C-1 built for a similar purpose as a given kayak will be a little wider (26"+) and maybe a little longer - for stability and speed (to some extent).
Where confusion can come in is with a conversion - a kayak that has had its seat removed and a pedestal (and other hardware added) for kneeling added. The hull is the same, but now it is a C-1 and the paddler will use a single blade.
Recreational paddlers looking for plastic boats, like the kayakers are all paddling, can look for older models or the one model currently in production (the Robson Finkenmeister). Or... they can convert a kayak hull. Kayak designs in the last 5-6 years have gotten wider and shorter - wide is good for stability; the length is bad for speed , but good for play/maneuverability.
I think it is time for a page with some side by side shots...
Scott
ps - and that ignored the distinction between OC-1, C-2, OC-2, OC-1 when it means an outrigger canoe, C-1 when it means an open canoe for marathon, etc...
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
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Steven
Thanks
Thank you for the informative responses. I'm a kayak paddler myself (recreational) and had not heard of C-1/C-2 until watching the whitewater events at the Olympics the other day. It was not obvious from what can be seen with the spray skirts on what the difference was. I tried surfing for the answer, but apparently it isn't a common question. The closed canoes sound hard on the knees, so I think I'll stick with my kayak. Are kayaks more stable due to the lower CG?<br><br>Thanks again,<br>Steven
some more stuff
I'll see if I can add a little more to what Scott B. already stated. Kyacks have a different hull/volume design from c-1 due to where the paddler sits and the space that is occupied.
A kyacker occupies the front half of the boat with their butt pretty much on the bottom of the boat, so volume is generally in the front half of the boat. Hull shape is generally more narrow for kyacks due to the boater's center-of-gravity sitting lower.
A c-1'er occupies only 3 feet of space inside the boat (generally where the cockpit is located) and is kneeling, so the center-of-gravity is higher (c-o-g varies depending on seat height). This difference makes a c-1 generally wider for more stability.
Those differences (volume distribution, hull width) combined with the shape of the kyacks' edges are what makes a kyack different from a canoe (aside from the different types of canoes Scott already mentioned).
Knee and ankle discomfort are going to be based on your ankle flexibility and outfitting of the boat. If you post a poll regarding who experiences knee pain/ankle pain, and in what time frame (after paddling 30 min., 1 hr., 2 hr., 3 hr., etc.), you'll get varied responses. I only have ankle discomfort when I jump in a boat after about a 2 month layoff (which is just about everytime I paddle now
). Knee pain only crops up when I paddle someone else's boat (like Mike W.'s Acrobat 
) when the outfitting is not to my liking.
Kinda surprised you had difficulty finding the difference between these boats and I hope you get more responses to your questions. And definitely try a c-1, at least in flat water. It'll add more entertainment to your whitewater experience
!
KNeal
A kyacker occupies the front half of the boat with their butt pretty much on the bottom of the boat, so volume is generally in the front half of the boat. Hull shape is generally more narrow for kyacks due to the boater's center-of-gravity sitting lower.
A c-1'er occupies only 3 feet of space inside the boat (generally where the cockpit is located) and is kneeling, so the center-of-gravity is higher (c-o-g varies depending on seat height). This difference makes a c-1 generally wider for more stability.
Those differences (volume distribution, hull width) combined with the shape of the kyacks' edges are what makes a kyack different from a canoe (aside from the different types of canoes Scott already mentioned).
Knee and ankle discomfort are going to be based on your ankle flexibility and outfitting of the boat. If you post a poll regarding who experiences knee pain/ankle pain, and in what time frame (after paddling 30 min., 1 hr., 2 hr., 3 hr., etc.), you'll get varied responses. I only have ankle discomfort when I jump in a boat after about a 2 month layoff (which is just about everytime I paddle now
). Knee pain only crops up when I paddle someone else's boat (like Mike W.'s Acrobat ) when the outfitting is not to my liking.Kinda surprised you had difficulty finding the difference between these boats and I hope you get more responses to your questions. And definitely try a c-1, at least in flat water. It'll add more entertainment to your whitewater experience
!KNeal
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Steven
Ankle pain?
Looks like I'm becoming an endless font of questions. Hopefully this series will conclude the conversation.
Why ankle pain? You keep your toes pointed while kneeling?
Between foot pegs, knee braces, and seat padding a kayaker maintains a high degree of contact with, and therefore control of, his boat. Obviously something has to be done with a C-1 to compensate for the reduced contact in the kneeling position to provide the degree of control demonstrated by the Olympians. So my questions is, what?
Curious Steven
Why ankle pain? You keep your toes pointed while kneeling?
Between foot pegs, knee braces, and seat padding a kayaker maintains a high degree of contact with, and therefore control of, his boat. Obviously something has to be done with a C-1 to compensate for the reduced contact in the kneeling position to provide the degree of control demonstrated by the Olympians. So my questions is, what?
Curious Steven
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icyone
kneeling
Boat contact is accomplished by having either a thwart or a small foam pedestal under the boater, and either straps or " machines" (metal unverted U fixtures)which cross the thighs and stabilize the paddler's position. Similar to fully-outfited whitewater OC-1s.
The degree of ankle pain also is a function of the height of the thwart/pedestal. In performance boats the pedestal is as low as possible (~5 inches), and the feet are basically flat except for possibly blocks under the ankles. More casual paddlers may have higher seats.
And BTW, WRT stability: C-boaters have a higher center of gravity, but with that goes a much stronger brace. Often C-1s will be bracing where K-1s will be rolling. (We roll faster, too.)
The degree of ankle pain also is a function of the height of the thwart/pedestal. In performance boats the pedestal is as low as possible (~5 inches), and the feet are basically flat except for possibly blocks under the ankles. More casual paddlers may have higher seats.
And BTW, WRT stability: C-boaters have a higher center of gravity, but with that goes a much stronger brace. Often C-1s will be bracing where K-1s will be rolling. (We roll faster, too.)
Paddlesports boat taxonomy
Here's my two cents worth of contribution to the taxonomical effort going on in this thread:
A new type of boat that's neither a C nor a K but a W (after the shape of the wake its twin hulls leave in the water):
Adam (Sir) wrote a nice review on it earlier this year.
Anyway, you can paddle it sitting, riding and kneeling - with either a single or double blade paddle, and you can paddle it standing too, in whitewater and in the surf (ocean).
www.wavewalk.com
A new type of boat that's neither a C nor a K but a W (after the shape of the wake its twin hulls leave in the water):
Adam (Sir) wrote a nice review on it earlier this year.
Anyway, you can paddle it sitting, riding and kneeling - with either a single or double blade paddle, and you can paddle it standing too, in whitewater and in the surf (ocean).
www.wavewalk.com