Re-enter and Roll - best outfitting?

TommyC1 · Post by **TommyC1** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:11 pm

I'm working on a design for a touring C1 and thinking that on open water far from shore it would be nice to be able to easily re-enter and roll.
I was going to use a foam console and foot blocks since that would be the easiest to slide into from under the boat. But I've been thinking that it would be nice to have the option of stretching out, feet forward at times so now I'm thinking about Mike Yee style thigh straps with the bungies to hold them in position.
Does anybody practice re-entering their C-boat while swimming?
If so any thoughts on what works or doesn't for outfitting?

Thanks,
Tommy

James · Post by **James** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:34 pm

I used to do it in my OC1 skeeter, which had the bulkhead and footpegs. I would imagine it would be quite tough with thigh straps. For a C1, you`d want a heck of a lot of flotation, if you ever wanted to paddle anywhere after. It is one thing to be able to roll it back up, quite another to paddle off somewhere full of water.

TommyC1 · Post by **TommyC1** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:18 pm

Ya I'd need to get the water out.
I figure on bulkheads ala Sea kayak for flotation. But leaving room to stretch my legs would leave a lot of room for water too. I'm thinking an electric pump would be handy.
Thanks,
Tommy

Post by **sbroam** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:30 pm

Touring C-1? Something like one of Krueger's boats, but "kneelable" and rollable? Interesting. Knowing I could roll in rough conditions would be nice - my kayak roll is not something I count on while my C-boat roll is pretty reliable.

As for reentry and roll - I'm not sure many sea kayakers actually do that. In my admittedly limited sea kayaking experience, I've used a paddle float for self-rescue or rafted up with other boats. The swamped boat is actually more stable and I used a hand pump to empty the boat - not great because you can't put the skirt back on, which might be advisable in rough conditions.

Have you seen the manual pumps that Valley (and other British co's) put in their sea kayaks? One approach is the deck mounted handle, another is a foot operated pump. The latter wouldn't work, of course, from a kneeling position but does not require you to let go of the paddle. Both allow you to skirt back up and still empty the boat. An electric one would be cool, but then you are counting on electric components in a salt water environment...

Scott

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:22 am

i can't begin to imagine it. c-1's are hard enough to get in when they're on solid ground. and upright.
seems like you'd need an outrigger or some kind of do-hicky thingy.
i wonder if it would be easier to stay in the boat!

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:21 am

I thought about using my old wildwater boat on flatwater. It's certainly fast enough. It would be a great racer for those of us who are more comfortable kneeling than sitting. It would also have an advantage over j-boats on large lakes where the wind kicks up the waves. But for a casual cruising boat I'd lean towards something with a little more initial stability. If you want to switch from kneeling to sitting you'll want a real stable boat.

As far as re-entering & rolling I think Scott is on to something with the sea kayker's paddle float as an outrigger deal. It's probably just as easy to right the boat, insert the paddle & float into deck rigging & climb back in. It would probably take a large float though, since our paddles are shorter. I would think that you'd want bulkheads imediately fore & aft of the cockpit to minimize the water that you will have to remove after a swim.

The only experience that I have in re-entering boats in deep water was with a Savage River OC-1 outrigger. In those boats you sit, have foot pedals for the ruder control & do not use a skirt. I found that the ama did not have enough bouancy to allow me to re-enter the boat. I had to put my life jacket under the ama so I could climb back in. Supposedly, experienced outrigger paddlers can re-enter without using the life jacket method.

I just remembered that before my roll was reliable I could right my Cascade & climb back in. I had air bags, but it still took on a bunch of water. It was still beter than swimming the boat to the bank.

If you want convertable outfitting how about instead of straps or a bulkhead, use thigh hooks that would be hinged so they would swing out over your thighs for kneeling or swung out of the way for sitting? I'll leave it to you to come up with a secure design on that idea.

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:40 am

I've re-entered of my outrigger a number of times, with practice it should get easier. Didn't think of that PFD trick, though!

TommyC1 · Post by **TommyC1** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:55 am

Here is a picture of what I have in mind. The forward bulkhead is roughly in place for a console. It would have to move further forward if I wanted to be able to stretch.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/236 ... 1318qSLJIC

disclaimer
I have no design or building experience. If I could buy a boat like this I wouldn't bother building it

madmike · Post by **madmike** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:11 pm

I like it, how do you portage?

Cone Bone · Post by **Cone Bone** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:31 pm

Tommy,

Nice rendering of the boat concept. What software did you create that with?

As to re-entering a boat in deep water: I have had good success climbing up the stem at the stern and shimmying along the rear deck to the cockpit. It is dicey getting reinstalled in the cockpit, but I have done it on the river and imagine that doing it in flatwater is realistic. I generally get relocated in the cockpit first, and then horse around with the straps one at a time after the boat is under control. A bulkhead outfit would streamline the whole process. As I think about this - the few times I have done it on the river, I just limped over to the bank after climbing back in, and emptied the boat before restrapping. A bilge pump would allow you to re-enter while out in large water and have the boat clear itself of water.

Getting back into the straps while upside down and rolling is something I have done in the pool, but on the river I have only tried the method above.

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:51 pm

Neat idea! Would it be stronger if the stern bulkhead were vertical?

My father in law built a stitch & glue sea kayak a couple of years ago. I've been bouncing around ideas for a s&g playboat, trying to figure how to make it strong enough without using bulkheads.

Scott, I was ~1/2 mile out when I flipped the outrigger. I did not want to try to swim it back in. The lifejacket worked great. Luckily the water was calm enough that I was comfortable removing my life jacket. When I got back to shore the owner said that the ama would take on water when forced under with my weight

.

Paddle Power · Post by **Paddle Power** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:20 pm

Someone I used to river run and playboat with was very good at reentering his canoe.
He paddled a Viper OC with northwater thigh straps (no bungie cords) and airbags.

If you for whatever reason got out of his boat he would swim under it and get back into the outfitting and then roll up. Usually he was in an eddy of course.

TommyC1 · Post by **TommyC1** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:57 pm

Yeah Mike W I think you are right about the stern bulkhead. The closer the top of that is to the cockpit opening the easier it will be to drain but vertical is stronger. I'll see how that goes when I do the coaming..

There's a guy with a S&G playboat on the kayak forum building board
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi
Do a search on "facetious".
I 'd bust up an S&G pretty quick on whitewater with my rock attraction.

Hey MadMike, Portage? That's some kind of french beer?
We don't portage on the Atlantic.

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:52 am

I don't think my 1st adventure in stitch & glue will be anywhere near as complex as "facetious"

That's a complex deck! Thanks for the link.

C-Forum

Re-enter and Roll - best outfitting?

Re-enter and Roll - best outfitting?

Full of water!

Concept

touring C-1

Nice pic's