OC choices

[SlovenOC'er]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to your cool forum and starting out with an ad nauseam question. After a 10 year hiatus, I'm getting back into OC-1 again. My last boat was an Ocoee which I liked. A number of new shorter boats have appeared since then. At 6'3", 230lbs, I've demoed a couple (Zoom, Taureau) and found them both kind of twitchy. I admit to being out of practice. I doooo like hard chimed hulls. Compounding the issue, I keep my saddle pretty high (9-10"). Just curious what other XL paddlers are successfully paddling and enjoying? I like river play and big water. Mad River and Esquif are all that's available for demos here, so anything else would be bought sight unpaddled. Did I mention that I like hard chimes? Thanks for your input.

SlovenOC'er

[Jon]

Chimes are what you hear when you press your doorbell.
Chines are the edges on the bottom of a hull that make it carve.

You might try to test drive a Bell Ocoee. I hear it's not exactly the same as the Dagger version (lower sheer line = wetter), or wait for the new Esquif Zepher. Supposed to be a bigger Zoom, Apparently has more stability at the price of performance. Have a friend with a Bell Ocoee who paddled a glass version of the Zepher very briefly and wasn't tempted to trade in his Ocoee. (He is ~ 6'1 & 225). I think there is always going to be a trade off in hull design between stability and performance. Bigger boats with more stability are not going to snap into smaller eddies. Small high performance boats (Zoom, Phantom) are going to feel twitchy and have a steeper learning curve. A combination of paddler preference and the kind of watter you paddle.

Good luck and have fun choosing. It's a good time of year to be buying.

[Jim P]

The twitchyness will go away but you are on the large size for the Zoom. In the Zoom you could get away with a 9" saddle. I think anymore and you should go back to the Ocoee.

The Ocoee - no need to demo, you already know the boat. For big folks it is a playboat!

[OC1_SURFER]

Sloven, I'm glad you're rejoining the OC ranks. Its always good to see more open-boaters, especially in Colorado.

You say that you liked your Ocoee. Most of the paddlers I know that paddle Ocoees consider it to be the ultimate whitewater open canoe in the non-hybrid class. I'm on my second one, and I have a third stashed away awaiting its turn. Mr. Hubbard really had his head on straight when he designed that boat. And, although he was less than average in size, his Ocoee is well suited for large paddlers. BTW, I'm only a 200 pounder, however I also need a 9"+ high pedestal. And, like you, I found the Zoom to be lacking in primary stability for a person my size.

Its a shame that Dagger dropped it's open-boat line. I haven't heard too much feedback about the Bell version of the Ocoee. The specs show it as being the same size as the Dagger, except its four pounds heavier. People are saying that the Royalex is not up to par these days. And Jon's statement about the lower sheer-line is news to me. Bell's specs show differently.

Other Esquif boats you might test paddle are the Spark and the new Zephyr. Can't comment on either of them since I haven't even seen them. You might also consider a Mohawk Viper. Frankie also designed them. I paddled a Viper 12 for a few years until I bought my first Ocoee. As far as I know, Mad River does not produce a hard-chined boat.

Hope this helps.

Terry

[Alan B]

I rarely post, except on this subject.... You had it right 10 years ago! I am your height and almost your weiight and think the Ocoee is the boat of choice for a big guy. Paddle everything you can before you buy but it is still (IMO) the best designed WW canoe. I would second everything that the other posters wrote as well. The Spark is a great boat but does not play as well as the Ocoee.

[yarnellboat]

If you can't get a Bell Ocoee or find an old Dagger, I'd suggest Mohawk' Viper 12 might be a decent gamble. Or, wait and test out Esquif's Zephyr. Other than that, MR offers you the Outrage (unless they start producing more old Dagger hulls that the parent company owns - they should do something to keep up with Esquif), but the Outrage won't satisify your interest in hard edging.

P.

[jpm370]

i just got a savage skeeter this year and outfitted it for myself. it works well and i weigh in at 230lbs and 6'2"

not that it will help you that much cause its out of production, but if you are from the states you might be able tofind one of em...

go for the bell ocoee, i have not paddled it myself but i hear good things aobut it

[SlovenOC'er]

First, let me thank everyone who was considerate and responded to my original guestions. The information received has quite insightful. I feel a little like Rip Van Winkle waking up to find the same boat waitng for me! It's a shame that manufacturers often feel obligated to de-tune a model when they upsize a version (This was been going on for decades with kayaks, although the last several years there has been improvement).

There is a local Pyranha dealer here. No actual boats to try, but the specs made me curious. The Prelude shows a very liberal weight range but there were comments on this forum on stability. The Spanish Fly looks pretty playful and appears to have a larger footprint than the Taureau. Some concerns about it being a pretty wet ride. Anyone care to weigh in on them?

Thanks, Slov

[the great gonzo]

SlovenOC,

The Prelude is a great boat for me, however I weigh only ~185 lbs.
While it has not mych primary stability, it has great secondary strability when put on edge. I virtually never have the hull flat, I am always edge it. It also likes to be paddled from the bow and very aggressively, it does not really like a laid back floater of a paddler.
It has extremely high rocker and a slightly rounder chine than the Ocoee, but it still carves nicely into eddys. It is essentially an open creekboat, but it still performs well in big water. One thing i like about it isthat it's handling does not deteriorate as much as most other open boats once you take on water.
I don't know how well it would perform however for someone your size, and I also noticed that people seem to either love or hate the boat, the ones that own one think (like me) it's still THE open boat to have (haven't paddled the Taureau yet), while others do not seem to like it at all, so paddling one before you buy is definitely a must.

martin a.k.a. The Great Gonzo!

Hope this helps

[Sandie_]

The Bell Ocoee paddles very well. I've had a go in two dagger Ocoees in the past and i'm convinced the Bell one paddles a lot easier.

BUT

The royalex is pathetic.
I have thrown my Mad River Freedom Solo down rivers over 30 times, half the time in less than ideal rocky conditions. I have paddled my Ocoee twice: once at Llangollen, this was mostly a rolling lesson on the flat water. The Second trip was at the coaching Festival at the Tryweryn (My local Dam fed river that keeps me afloat in the summer). I kept away from rocks and had a good run. The boat should be hardly scuffed.

Looking at the two hulls this evening you would be hard pressed to know which was the newer boat. Also many of the scratches on the Ocoee are going right through to the white layer underneath.

I hope the other Bell canoes are not made from the same stock of royalex.

The first ocoee I get melted and had to be sent back. We thought the cause was the dealer using too much/ the wrong glue. I am now wondering if the first Ocoee melted not because of a misuse of glue but the plastic is less solid and more susceptable to melting.

Sandie

[Tiggy]

Think there is an Ocoee for sale here in Steamboat. Dagger. Call Mountain Sports Kayak School. Berry Smith. He can tell ya. I looked at it as i was interested, looked like the team edge saddle, needed a new dog bone patch, float bags fair, but hull looked good.

[Louie]

Eli will be there.

[NZMatt]

Hmmmm....welll I'm a big Esquif fan and love my Zoom. If you find that a bit twitchy, I'd definitely recommend trying out the larger version (the Zephyr was it?). If that's not to your taste, and you like the Ocoee style, check out the Robson Homes. I haven't paddled it yet, but it looks like a seriously pulled (like 4" or so) Ocoee I think. I really liked it the time I got to paddle an Ocoee like that...of course the Homes is the new material and, I've heard, horrendously expensive.... this might be worth considering though if the Royalex on the new Ocoees is not up to snuff and the Esquif boats don't feel right to you. Personally, I'm loving the Zoom....

NZMatt

[NZMatt]

Hmmmm....welll I'm a big Esquif fan and love my Zoom. If you find that a bit twitchy, I'd definitely recommend trying out the larger version (the Zephyr was it?). If that's not to your taste, and you like the Ocoee style, check out the Robson Homes. I haven't paddled it yet, but it looks like a seriously pulled (like 4" or so) Ocoee I think. I really liked it the time I got to paddle an Ocoee like that...of course the Homes is the new material and, I've heard, horrendously expensive.... this might be worth considering though if the Royalex on the new Ocoees is not up to snuff and the Esquif boats don't feel right to you. Personally, I'm loving the Zoom....

NZMatt

[Remoteproductions]

I have a dagger phantom and a spanish fly in Salida. Waters about gone, but if you wanted to get a feel for them, let me know. BOB (970)209 9260