OC2 questions

[the great gonzo]

I am looking to buy an OC2 down the road. So far My experience in WW OC2's is limited to a ME (long time ago, over10 years for sure) and more recently a Caption.
Kinda trying to decide which boat to look into. The ones I am looking at would bethe Bell Nexus, Esquif Vertige X, and Mohawk Probe 14.
Can anyone tell me how each bost handles conpared to the Caption in terms of maneuvrability, stability, speed and acceleration. The boat would be used ffor technical paddling as well as big water.

Thanks!

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[Paddle Power]

Looks like you are settled on 14' canoes. If not, I'd consider the Blast.

[Jim P]

have not paddled the Nexus. The vertige X will carry a pair of larger paddlers drier than the probe 14 or the caption. If you are taking smaller and less experienced boaters the extra rocker in the probe and caption will make turns much easier for you. The Vertige is a bit "detuned" as compared to the the other two in that it is just is not as nimble but it is very stable, surfs well and rolls easy. For me the main factor is weight is if you and your partner are total over 300 or so Pounds the probe is going to be wet, the caption will handle a bit more and the Vertige the largest capacity.

[bushpaddler]

We (180 and 110 lbs) have a Blast and love it!!!
Very squirrely on technical Rivers and surprisingly dry in big water.
Ithink it's more stable than the caption, not sure about the speed.
If you have the chance, try one on the river...

Florian

[drrpm]

I've owned both and like the Probe better. The Caption seemed to accelerate better and was a little faster. The Probe seems more manuverable and has better secondary stability. My paddling partners range from 90-150 lbs and I'm 190, but the Probe stays pretty dry with all of them when running class III's like on section 3 of the Chattooga. I also like the Probe as a solo (mine has a triple saddle) on section 4, at least until I get to the lake.

[pevans]

I can only comment on the Probe. Its not the fastest boat out there but I find it stable, maneuverable, and dry. With the triple saddle two might be a bit close together if they are on the larger side, but the rocker and the closeness contributes to the maneuverability. As a solo boat, I find it a bit big, at least when I was 140 pounds. Right now, the boat is in storage outside of Harrisburg, PA. You’re more than welcome to try it if you’re down that way.

- Paul

[dccjon]

I own a Caption and recommend it highly. It is more manueverable and definately drier than a friend's Nexus. The Nexus seems wide and has less depth also. I think MRC is supposed to be bringing the Caption back, but I have not seen one yet.

[yarnellboat]

With all due respect to the Caption, I'd much rather buy from Esquif or Mohawk than from Confluence.

In my opinion, the Caption and the VertigeX are quite similar. For that matter, the Probe 14 isn't all that different either - they all fill the same niche in the market anyway, and which you like best for your needs comes down to personal preferences.

PY.

[Ed Eout]

Hi Martin, I have a Caption and love it. To me it's about as perfect as a tandem boat can get. Forgiving when needed and you can wring some great performance out of it too. It's so comfortable I take people who have never paddled down the Cheat Canyon and Lower Yough (at sane water levels).

Pedestal position makes a big difference in handling though. For tight technical rivers get 'em close together. Of course this makes it the very dickens to go straight. It's wicked fast and easy to handle with pedestals separated a bit more. When outfitting mine we paddled flat water while moving pedestals around to find the right compromise between agility and tracking. For an asymmetrical hull, it's surprisingly predictable crossing eddy lines and current differentials. It has Great secondary stability and it's waaaay lighter than a VertigeX.

I'm a Mowhawk fan and have paddled Probes and Vipers for years. But, the tandem Probe is a total dog. Like it's solo sibling it "squats" as you achieve any hull speed, killing all your effort - it simply won't get up on plane. Max weight is about 260-270 lbs. for any kind of performance. IMHO, it's a horrible, horrible tandem boat but works okay for solo.

Sorry, never paddled the Nexus, can't help you there.

You are welcome to try mine if you are around Harpers Ferry/DC or come to the North Branch thingy.

[Marc Evans]

Hi Martin:

After several years of flatwater paddling I started whitewater in a Probe 14 with a triple position pedestal. My then 13 year old daughter ran some class III with me, but I ended up mostly using it solo. The boat spins easily and is very stable - although when I first got in it I thought it was the squirreliest hunk of plastic I had ever been - thought I'd made a big mistake. As I said, the boat is actually very stable, both in primary and secondary stability. In addition, it is easy to roll. Having never rolled a canoe before I was able to get it up on the second attempt. That is not because of some inate skill, just that the boat is easy to roll. The fact that I still can't get the Fink to roll on a consistent basis should tell you something about my rolling abilities.

One thing that you might consider is that the probe is a fairly wide boat, making cross strokes more difficult. As I recall, the caption is a couple of inches narrower. Also, it is fairly slow. My MR Outrage is considerably faster. This is probably due, in part, to more effective use of off-side strokes.

I can't say anything about the other boats you listed. However, there was a Canoe and Kayak review of the Probe 14, Caption and Whitesell Piranha (all as tandems) about 5 or 6 years ago (sorry, don't remember the issue). If you can find a copy it might help with your decision.

Good luck.

Marc

[Alan B]

Here is my two cents... I have paddled everything mentioned so far , but some more than others and some more recently, which means all my opinions are...suspect? I own a Caption and believe it is the best of the lot. I understand yarnallboat's feelings about not supporting Confluence. I don't know too much about Mohawk, the company, but I do know that Esquif is huge in the support of open canoeing and plan to buy several of their boats. They have produced many models and interesting designs at a time when some people perceive the sport is waning. However, I would have a hard time not replacing my Caption if and when it bites the dust. Jim P. mentioned the Vertige X is de-tuned... my feelings, exactly. I have paddled that boat the most, of all the models mentioned. It seems very wide at the paddling stations and I am 6'3" with a even bigger wing span. It just doesn't carve into eddies or anything with much excitement. I found the Blast to be squirrely but did not give it much of a chance... one run down the slalom course in Wausau. The Bell boats all seem wet and boring. Only been in the Probe once but would have to agree with Ed on that one. My one problem with the Caption is the lack of dryness in the center. If only they could have had some flair without widening the boat near the saddles. Last thought... As I often do on this forum, promote Millbrook Boats. Don't rule out a kevlar boat for rec paddling!! I won't bore people again with some of my war stories of my Kaz boat on the Lochsa (look at my past postings for details) but his boats will take some serious use. And you can avoid trouble much of the time because they are so light! So, the model to look at is the Prowler or a cut down Prowler. Kaz has only done one cut down model that I know of. Bob and Jill Stecker of CO. bought a regular length Prowler (15') and a cut down version. Not certain of the length but believe it was just under 14'. It would also make the best solo boat of all the above! For what it's worth...

[c1swim]

No one mentioned the Rogue (we-no-nah) I think it's an awesome oc2. especially if you want to carry gear or beer. I've had it on the Devils River and the Rio Bravo (Rio Grande). It's great for multi-days and handles class 3 to -4 with ease. It is wide, deep, and dry. But only 3" of rocker and 16' long. Also, I like the probe.

[the great gonzo]

Thanks for all the answers folks!
I think the Caption still is the top of the heap, all the other mentioned boats seem to have some traits I don't like too much, although I still will try to give each one a go myself, just to be sure.
I never tried a Blast, but I spent a bit of time in friends Nitro and didn't care for it at all, and since the Blast looks just like a scaled up Nitro, it didn't make the short list.
About the Millbrook boats, some of them crossed my mind as well, but I thought that they might be a bit too high performance for what I intend on using it for, i.e. taking inexperienced people down the river, but I might consider them as well, as I really like the lightness and stffness of composite boats.
I know the ME, great boat, but a bit wet. Can anyone tell me how a Howler and Prowler compares to a Caption?

Thanks!

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[Jim]

Martin:

I cannot speak to the Caption, but I highly recommend the Prowler. I have both the Prowler (composite) and the Howler (plastic) and they get paddled a lot, both tandem and solo.

The Howler is edgier and handles well. I do not like it as much when the combined padders’ weight starts getting above 300 pounds and by 340 pounds it really feels funky. It is a great long surfing boat- there are some waves that it just loves and then it leaves the kayakers jealous.

The Prowler is faster, drier and more responsive. Some of that may be due to being composite, but it is an amazing boat that I will happily take anywhere. It is comfortable with 2 large paddlers and it is predictable so that you will feel safe in it. It is also responsive enough that I love paddling it solo. I have posted before that it handles like a much smaller boat- when you tell it to spin it does so surprisingly fast for a 15’ boat. It surfs and boofs well, and I love the way that bow lifts up over everything. I agree with the previous post- Kaz makes these boats really sturdy. I have slammed some huge rocks (It was my wife’s fault up in the bow. Really.) and paddled off without damage.

Good luck with your decision.

[OC1_SURFER]

One picture is worth a thousand words. We love our Probe 14!!!