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 Post subject: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Pain Boater
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:44 pm
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Location: Washington
Looking for a wildwater c-1 to paddle on open ocean water. Anyone got any suggestions or leads?
Thanks,
Bill Hay


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Height, weight and balance will be big issues. In my opinion (as one of the best mediocre c-1's I know :)) all of the modern designs based on the Bala are narrow, tippy and have a high bow deck, which sounds like it would be challenging in the ocean. The Tiptop, made over here by Dagger and Valley Mill, is considered big and stable, but it also has a pretty high bow deck, which the wind can catch, as I've learned the hard way. They are also rare as hen's teeth. If I was tilting at this particular windmill (with my own modest skill set) I would try to find an old Ace III. This has the same/very similar hull as the Tiptop, but a much lower bow deck. I suspect there are some out there, but I have no idea where.

This is ancient, but you might have a look here:

http://www.usawildwater.com/news/2015/1 ... -JrU23.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Location: Washington
Thanks, edg,
Nothing listed on their site currently, but I'll keep looking. The sea kayak I am paddling has an upswept bow, so I'm not sure how much that would change with a wildwater c-1.
I'm just longing for the single blade feel again, I think.
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:13 pm 
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What about an outrigger canoe? You'd be sitting instead of kneeling, but from the videos I've seen, those things are meant for some serious open water conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Location: Washington
OB,
Great idea; I hadn't thought of those. Indeed, I had very little idea they even existed.
So, I took a look. Very interesting boats. The one big drawback is that I live in the Pacific Northwest and all of these are open canoes. I have cold water to contend with, nice warm Hawaiian waves.
But I'll pursue this idea a bit further.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:33 pm 
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I would add that I live in a cold, windy place, and know of multiple world class wildwater c-1/k1 types who got very into outrigger OC-1/OC-6. They all loved it. I think it would be a much more enjoyable option than ww c-1 in anything other than dead flat water/wind ocean conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:11 am 
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Many of the available Outrigger Canoes offer spray decks if that is your worry.


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:16 pm
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Location: Roanoke VA
I have paddled three different types of single bladed boats in the ocean, including a wildwater C1, and you would have to be hard up to pick a wildwater c1 for any appreciable ocean paddling. There are two other types of viable options.

1. A sea canoe - there are myriad types
- Verlen Kruger related
- Sawyer Loon (Gen 1)
- Mad River Monarch (Gen 2 - what I have - much fuller stern than the Loon)
- Kruger Sea Wind (nicer but much more $ - almost cult-like selling prices - very similar hull to Monarch but likely 4x Monarch cost in used market)
- there are other options also
- nearly all have rudders and partial skirts
- not rollable, but very capable in the ocean and fairly fast - 4 mph is easy
- good comfort level
- also a good river canoe
- built tough for expedition use
2. An outrigger C1
- Huki makes them in the US
- there are multiple other makers
- much faster - 6 mph is easy and 7 mph is fine
- much more sporty in the ocean - downwind runs are a blast and you can surf small waves "bumps"
- some are open where you wear a skirt and others are closed like a surfski
- most have rudders but not all
- fragile - like a rowing shell - you have be careful with the boat

I have hundreds of hours in my Mad River Monarch with probably 100 in the ocean - it is very capable and great for touring with its good speed and reasonable comfort. I cannot keep up with a fast wildwater c1, but I can paddle it for hours. I've been down mid-level Class 3 rapids in it also and could probably manage getting it down the Ocoee ok, though it would not be a pick for that. These are very capable boats. You can probably find a good condition Loon or Monarch for in the $1000 range or maybe less. I'd take any of those 3. I did replace my Monarch seat with a Sea Wind seat (direct fit - that is how identical the boats are) but otherwise it is original as from Mad River.

I have maybe 100 hours in my Huki V1R outrigger, and it is my go-to boat for the ocean. I paddle it anywhere in the ocean. If it is cold I just wear a drysuit like a surfski paddler. It is so fast I could leave Vladi in my (miniscule) wake. My 10 year old son took it out last week in the ocean and quickly pronounced it his favorite boat of our entire fleet - it is just so fast and capable in the ocean. These are more expensive - probably less than a Sea Wind but more in that range.

I have paddled an Ace II (not III) that I used to have in the ocean some. The downsides are wind (as edg noted) and also comfort, plus if you are going to surf launch, how are you going to get into it and get situated in the surf zone? I normally surf launch in the Monarch and Huki, and you need to be able to get in quickly and punch out through the waves.

Good luck in your hunt whatever you end up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Location: Washington
Very helpful replies.
I have paddled a Jensen C-1 in the Puget Sound and like it. Rough water is a concern with any open canoe.
I'll look at your suggestions and keep you posted.
The kayak I am paddling (a Seaward Legend) is only 21" wide and 17' long. It's fast and fun. I just miss the single blade paddling and find sitting and paddling a bit uncomfortable.
Miles of great paddling out in front of my house.
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:44 pm
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Location: Washington
By the way, Clipper Canoes in Canada is offering a Sea-1: http://www.clippercanoes.com/specialty-boats/
It seems to be similar to the Mad River boat. Has internal flotation. 17'9" long. Pricey. Not sure how it paddles, though.
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Location: Roanoke VA
I was thinking of the Sea-1 but could not recall its name. I think that all of the sea canoes should be close to as fast as your kayak over a distance. You should be able to find all of those used if you search around some - they are built sturdy and essentially last forever. I think John Diller also builds both an outrigger and a decked canoe.

For comparison, my outrigger has a hull width of 15" and a waterline width of about 12.5", at a length of 20'. You do have to somehow add something for the ama width for a fair comparison though it barely skims the water.

If you live close to saltwater and test out an outrigger C1, I would bet that you would have a hard time going with anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Wildwater Boat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:44 pm
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Location: Washington
Well, I do live outside of Tacoma, WA, and these guys: http://kikaha.com/ are in Tacoma. I'll check it out this summer.
Outriggers do look inviting and fun.
Thanks for all the input.
Bill


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