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 Post subject: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:50 am 
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I've been paddling C1's exclusively for 16 years and still enjoy the ride. As I get older it becomes evident that I will have to consider transitioning to something that is easier on my knees, or is that a misconception? I ask because I spent a day in a boat I really like, a Shacho, and yes it allowed me to stretch out when I needed to, but I felt like I would still like the saddle much lower than the standard height. I have been rotating between 3 and 4 cboats of mine, Atom, Viper, Storm Chaser and C2, the C2 being the hardest to endure for more than 3 hours, though I've found lately that the well timed application of vitamin I has made a big difference. I pose this conundrum because I don't want to deceive myself into thinking transitioning to an open boat is going to extend my paddling enjoyment into the distant future. I like the C1's I paddle and the way that I can make them move through the water and play the features, and yet I can do almost the same in said open boat, it just doesn't satisfy the same. I know a few paddlers my age (64) who can still jump in a C1 and do a 6 hour run without much knee discomfort, that is not me. 5 hours has been my top for the last few years. I know that other C1ers must be / have faced this dilemma. Once you don't get down in that lower saddle on a regular basis you are not going to be able to do it on an irregular basis, but is moving up to a higher saddle really going to help or am I just pushing the threshold up and not really changing the end game?

I would like to hear of other's experiences on avoiding or making a transition from one style of paddling to another.

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:15 am 
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Kelly-Rand wrote:
. . . I would like to hear of other's experiences on avoiding or making a transition from one style of paddling to another. . .

Maybe it's the outfitting, not the boat, which should govern your choice.

I've been an open boater for all of my adult life, but 10 - 15 years ago, I took a serious crack at transitioning to (decked) C-1ing. Although I was having fun, age caught up with me, and I found I was just not comfortable being locked into the cramped cockpit of a C-1, with legs immobilized by straps, for long periods of time. Moreover, getting in and out of the C-1 straps and skirt was time-consuming, especially on a rough shore.

So I returned to OC paddling, at an age just a little older than you are. I still get uncomfortable when in the boat for long runs, but what has saved my bacon, comfort-wise, has been bulkhead outfitting. When I'm getting uncomfortable, it's a quick maneuver to head to shore, jump out and stretch, and get back into the boat before the rest of the gang is out of sight.

I can even stretch a little, in slow water, without exiting the boat.

I haven't given up much in the way of boat performance. One of my boats of choice is an Aftershock (retrofitted with an old Option bulkhead saddle -- that's another story!) The A'shock is not much bigger than a large C-1, and is plenty playful. AND having to empty the boat frequently gives me a convenient excuse to take quick stretch breaks!

FWIW.

Good luck in dealing with the advancement of years! Remember -- the idea is to die young, as late as possible.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:17 pm 
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None of us can change the end game. Wealth, good genetics, and access to high end medical interventions can make the ride last longer, but the destination does not change.

On the specifics of switching to a different kind of paddling, I suppose it depends on what really motivates you. If the only thing that will make you happy on the water is a decked C1, then at some point you'll just have to quit the sport once it becomes too painful. I have a friend in his 70s who is leaving the sport because his back/neck can't take rolling any more, and he's not interested in using a ducky. I know other older paddlers who are fine with inflatables.

At one time or another, I've piloted most kinds of whitewater boats - K1, C1, OC1 and 2, IK, paddle raft, oar rig. Each has its own pleasures and pains. I learned in K1, but my craft of choice for about 15 years was OC. I tried C1 briefly and enjoyed the dryness, precision, and playability, but it was just too painful. When fallout from a stupid cross country ski injury made OC-1 also too painful to do on a regular basis, I was really bummed, but it wasn't the end of the world. I went back to K1, and putting aside all of the C-boat inferiority complex baggage, it's just as enjoyable. In fact, from the standpoint of dryness, maneuverability, and playability, K1 is way closer to C1 than OC is, in spite of the different paddling technique. Yes, I miss the satisfaction of making a graceful offside move in pushy water, but I'm still on the water, and that's what really matters to me. At some point, I'm guessing I'll end up physically unable to spend long hours in a K-boat as well. When that happens, perhaps I'll switch to inflatables, or perhaps I'll just be done with whitewater completely and will find a different way to be a part of the natural world.

I've gone through a similar transition in biking. I used to be an avid road and track racer, but fallout from multiple shoulder injuries has made it impossible to ride at that level anymore. Hammering out of the saddle is guaranteed to result in a week's worth of pain and reduced range of motion, so I've had to learn to be satisfied with just being a recreational and utilitarian rider. It's probably taken 10 years for me to truly stop missing that part of my life, but so it goes. The brain is supremely adaptable, and most people can find a way to cope with a wide range of constraints.

I'm reminded of an interview with, I think, Carl Reiner who is still super productive in his 90s. I liked his comment on needing to be comfortable with the space between "over" and "next."


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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:45 pm 
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As we age, circulation is a serious concern - even for the fit. Maybe even especially the fit with low resting heart rates. I read an article about mountain bikers, injuries, and deep vein thrombosis that was concerning. I need to find that article...

That to say I think saddle height and getting out of the boat with some frequency are important. It's easier to get those tall saddles in open boats. It's easier to hop in and out of open boats...

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Frist I would like to say you guys are great. I like what you said. I am 57. I get out of my boat(C1) every hour to hour & half, and stay comfortable. My saddle is at 7 3/4", on the high side I take it, but works for me. My Fink has bulkhead thigh braces which I do like better than the straps in my Cascade. I have had two knee surgeries to relieve bakers cysts(successful). I also wonder about my longevity on my knees. I fear the switch K1.
Rand

P.S. I am always hurrying up to catch back up with my K1 friends after resting my knees in some cool water.


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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:55 am 
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Thanks guys for your perspective. I can say that kboating is not an option, my back would not take it, C1 is therapy. I will stick with the C1's as it just doesn't make sense to make a huge investment in glass open boats, because no one boat is going to be satisfactory on every river I paddle. What prompted this rant was my day in an open boat I like and realizing I'm not strong enough now to make it a challenging boat. I'm not strong enough to do an open boat pirouette, I can still do that in my viper. I have my tripping canoe for when the time comes to say goodbye to the C1's and i'll just have to accept that.

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:06 pm 
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68 now.
I have done lots of OC and gave C1'ing a good try but couldn't resolve the flexibility issue. I also enjoyed rafting but didn't want to pay for more gear and create another "basement' sport.

So at 67 I took up K1.
Sometime I'll paddle a K1 and a OC on back to back runs on the same rapid, just for the sampling of it.
Got to say I love the lightness of the K1 acceleration, the double blade power, and the ease of lifting a K1 onto the rack, all factors with age.

But I jumped into an Octane 85 last week. Once I dropped the old style technique (Viper 11 style) and just went with the Blackly thru the meat I could feel the juices a pumping. Love the 'new canoes' on the river but... need a hand living them onto the rack. Nothing that can't be paid back with cold beer.

By the way, transiting to the K1, from OC, gave me a case of Surfers Ear. I think that I went a little too aggressive on K1 roll practice without ear plugs. Can't blame that on age though.
Just the same bad judgement I had in youth.
e

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Jim
I sat in some of your boats... you might think of raising the height of the saddle. That made my life much more comfortable. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:48 am 
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Paul,

I have raised the saddle, and that has helped but I can see there is a limit of diminishing returns. The higher you raise the saddle the less likely your thigh straps will hold you in the boat longer than one or two roll attempts. I think there is a video of me rolling your Viper at the play wave on the NB some years ago where I succeeded but the skirt popped off as I slid out of the straps. Made it to shore though. Granted I was more athletic then than I am now. I know from my AC/DC that there is still knee discomfort after a while, a bit longer than when I am in my lower C1's. What I fear is that once I raise the default saddle height, after a year the new low will be the same as the old low.

till next

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Found that article - https://www.bicycling.com/training/heal ... ve-cyclist Something I'm keeping in mind as I find myself pedaling more than paddling (it's something I can find time for - at least the stationary bike...)

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Hummmm..... yep you are one taller fellow. That will be an issue.

The key is to get the weight off the knees IMHO so the saddle build is the answer. A lot of larger folks are going towards Octane 91s forgiving and spacious. THe 20/20 from Kaz might work for you since you paddle water not rocks. That or a wide ride.

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 Post subject: Re: C1 to OC1 or not
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:32 am 
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I have found that stretching is very helpful when it comes to any kind of c boating. Not only before and after paddling, but part of a daily routine.

Assume the normal saddle position on the floor sitting on your heels and then reach out way in front with your hands, hold for 20 seconds or so and repeat at least 2 more times. Some deep knee bends helps me as well, I hope this helps you. Dan


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