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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:11 am 
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Location: Scotland Glasgow, France Ubaye
Just asking what people think about that?
I don't have one because I've not got the time to fit one in, or think about it.

Also at the back of my mind, I feel (not strongly) that if I'm styling a line I should run it really dry. And if I'm full, it means that is was not ideal.

Interestingly, a while back McGnarlz told us it was imperative on classV. And yet, none of the footage featuring dooley, Eli, James W... seem to show presence thereof.

I'm not a class V paddler, and I might never get there. But would I benefit from a pump? Is it a cope out? Am I imposing some silly rules upon myself?

At the end of the day I don't think I'll install one through sheer laziness but interested to know about the community's thoughts on this.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:58 am 
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Erick,

Some lines are just wet mate, no way to stay dry. Just drill huge holes in your hull like James. Only joking! For most UK rivers you can get out and dump quicker than a pump can do the job. For your local runs that I will be taking you down in France this season you may want to consider one!

Hope to see you soon,

Kelvin.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:04 am 
It really depends what canoeing means to you as an individual...
If you really value your dry lines then maybe don't bother.

I have a mighty fine Attwood V1250 that hops about from boat to boat with little more than than a bit of deflation & inflation of an airbag.
What it does for me is this....
Playboats, I can start every run with an empty boat if i want to, i get twice as many runs in a session and don't waste half the day getting to a spot & dumping...I often get in the boat and don't get out of it again for several hours.. :D
River running, Apart from the need to inspect, I don't get out of my boat on a trip. I take the fun lines instead of the dry lines, i can make moves mid rapid that you would not consider doing with a semi full boat, play waves in mid rapid that you would not catch with a heavy boat...etc etc..

So to me the Lazy approach is to fit a pump, its easier than protecting for dryness and far less effort than trying to find spots to dump in all the time!! :D


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 Post subject: Downside
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:06 am 
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The downside of apump is that you just keep heading back in and having fun for hours. Then you get Charleyhorses in both legs on a roll. Taht'll get you out your hull in a hurry.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:57 am 
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Why not?

Pride
Hassle - set up (wait, outfitting is fun, strike that)
Hassle - keeping up with batteries

That's about it. I've got one that I don't use all of the time. It sure is nice on a play run or when its cold...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Hassle. Installation, charging etc.

I think it would also remove some of the challenge from open boating. If you want an empty boat all the time and you never want to dump water, then why not paddle a C1? They re cheaper.

I actually like getting out of my boat from time to time. It means that I can still feel my at the take out.

I d rather add foam to displace water. I think it's a compromise. You can see if you had a good run by how much water is in your boat but a wet line doesn't turn your boat into a 300lb projectile. My boat rolls a lot drier with the foam also... and it's warmer.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Ian, at one point I had a boat with 2 Attwood V1250s in it and if you are hitting the meat and blasting through holes, surfing a decent size wave the big hole in the top fills the boat far faster than any pump/pumps will take the water out. You will still be dealing with a boat full of water. It is nice to be able to park behind a boulder though and let it drain, as opposed to going to shore and wrangling a million pounds of boat and water.
And for whoever says it robs from the "Purity of the sport" go carve your own dam paddle and get back in your birch bark canoe. Get rid of any thought of air bags, foam pedastels, royalex, PE, helmets, drysuits, pfds, neoprene, Gflex, or any other thing that allows us more time on the water and less time at home or on the bank.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:58 pm 
Mr.DeadLegs wrote:
Ian, at one point I had a boat with 2 Attwood V1250s in it and if you are hitting the meat and blasting through holes, surfing a decent size wave the big hole in the top fills the boat far faster than any pump/pumps will take the water out. You will still be dealing with a boat full of water. It is nice to be able to park behind a boulder though and let it drain, as opposed to going to shore and wrangling a million pounds of boat and water.
And for whoever says it robs from the "Purity of the sport" go carve your own dam paddle and get back in your birch bark canoe. Get rid of any thought of air bags, foam pedastels, royalex, PE, helmets, drysuits, pfds, neoprene, Gflex, or any other thing that allows us more time on the water and less time at home or on the bank.

Chris likes this... :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Either way is okay in my book. But I think the weight verse play possiblities gives the pump its plus. With a good set up you can stick in a hole and play longer with a pump going. Works for creeks too when extra water weight can make the difference between getting to where you need to be verses where you don't want to be. Just my $.01. I paddle in both modes and C1 too. Its all good!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:14 pm 
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I can't roll, I don't have finesse or much skill, I'm a 140 lb weakling with arms like toothpicks, I swim a lot, and whether on purpose or by accident, I usually take the meaty lines. A pump is a good fit for me, and I can take the ribbing that the guys give me for having it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:23 pm 
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It is a fun accessory to fill your buddies boat with water when they are not looking.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:26 pm 
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ian123 wrote:
Hassle. Installation, charging etc.

I think it would also remove some of the challenge from open boating. If you want an empty boat all the time and you never want to dump water, then why not paddle a C1? They re cheaper.

I actually like getting out of my boat from time to time. It means that I can still feel my at the take out.

I d rather add foam to displace water. I think it's a compromise. You can see if you had a good run by how much water is in your boat but a wet line doesn't turn your boat into a 300lb projectile. My boat rolls a lot drier with the foam also... and it's warmer.


Yep - with a pump, it's still easy to hop in and out and I've got lots of foam (in the SF) for the same reasons as you. I have C-1s, too - there are plusses and minuses there, too - certainly not as easy to just hop in and out!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:37 pm 
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This again :) seems like weeks....

For a lot of people the pump(s) has become quite the norm, and who is to say what's proper or not. To me it seems that the danger relies on becoming dependent upon one, and thereby never really learning to run totally dry. Yes, there are simply some lines-drops-rapids which are inherently wet. And there have been times I would have potentially run a drop, that I didn't :oops: just because of what was above it. Of course I will also paddle without airbags, which most will not consider these days (what we called - go'in naked). We did this just to up the odds for fun, for aesthetics, and for old times sake. I believe that this may be analogous to what other activities denote sport-versus- trad. Which is common for instance in climbing and archery. WHERE certain aspects of the sport are eschewed by some (and not others), while advances in materials are not... better bow limbs. arrows, ropes, harness'es, chalk, etc.

I'd think that the nature of what you are paddling, would dictate a lot toward your opinion. For me I do a lot of creeks, not very wide, and which provide ample dumping spots. I've been to other places where emptying was not so easy (Slot Canyons, Ottawa, Kootneay, etc ) and if I lived there maybe a pump would be 'far' more inviting.


Last edited by philcanoe on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:39 pm 
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The presence of a pump doesn't mean you can't strive for dry lines. For me a pump is most useful for ridding the boat of that annoying extra inch or two of water that wouldn't justify a stop to dump. Flip the switch and keep on stroking.

A pump might make possible long continuous stretches, sections without stopping opportunities that you might otherwise not consider. Or even if you run them anyway can make them more pleasant and arguably safer.

While it is much quicker to empty a full boat by dumping that's not always possible. On many occasions I've sat in a micro-eddy on a shelf between boat filling ledges/drops while the pump did its magic. Without the pump the second drop would have been more like an out of control mystery move encounter than anything else.

Another useful situation is in the middle of a wide river where the boat gets emptied while holding station in a mid-stream eddy. I could make it to a bank with the full boat. But the amount of fun class III boulder garden I would miss while I flushed downstream would be a real shame.

Lastly there is the immense fun of pulling up next to a kayak, flipping the switch and voiding your boat across their hull. BTW, don't do this unless you know the other person well. Sometimes people attach undue symbolism in the act. :wink:

Dave Friend


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Personally speaking... if I did a lot of tandem paddling (or if I actually owned a tandem boat) I'd absolutely want to have a pump. It makes so much sense for those boats it isn't even funny.

For solo paddling there's only a few times I can recall where I wished I had a pump. For playboating at the couple places I really like to go surfing... I far prefer my C1

I guess to an extent you could call it "cheating" but you still have to paddle the rapid/drop/hole/wave and you still have to roll if you flip... using a pump is just an easy and efficient way to get the water out. I don't see any crime in that.

That all being said... for any kind of O.C. competition I think it's totally "cheating".

Lastly... I'm not a "gadget or gizmo" type of guy... heck I don't even own a 'real' cell phone.

:lol:


Edit... funny thing is that once I started paddling boats with bulkheads rather than a regular saddle... I never had to carry a bailing scoop any longer. So is a bailing scoop "cheating"? :lol:

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