A twelve-step program -- then RECOVERY !!

[yarnellboat]

Hi Rick, Congrats on the new ride! p.s. I'm headed to the island via Nanaimo later this month, I'll think about whether I can find part of day for a paddle.

I've got a few thoughts on this, to stir the pot:

1. Having a plastic boat or a short boat doesn't make you a good paddler. But I'll concedde that it's a reasonable indicator, and that the West Coast isn't a hotbed. But it's not like everyone is still paddling H2Pros, we've got lots of Ocoees, Viper 11s, Zoom, Solito,... And you know what it's like trying to see or demo a new design from out here. Plus, with Vancouver mortgage/housing, nobody can afford an extra boat or has space to put it! Actually, real estate may be a legit factor, because several active class III+ left town, in part related to housing costs in one way or another - few people are from Vancouver, most are just passing through for a decade or so.

2. Having a couple of class IV canoeists in a community is not linked to growing a community of class IV canoeists, unless somebody makes that link happen. Maybe easier today in the world of Internet forums and videos, but the class III-IV folk tend to separate themselves from the conservative class II-III masses in the clubs (not that canoeing on the WC will ever be "masses"). I probably started ww solo about when Tyler Elm left town (early 2000s), and none of the people I was learning with knew of his crowd. In the "masses" circles, I never realized an open canoe could paddle the Chilliwack canyon, never mind the Lynn or Seymour canyon!

3. Vancouver has good paddling AROUND it, but close to town water levels are iffy/seasonal. Those who live closer to something like the Chilliwck have a major leg up.

4. Vancouver is a good place to canoe if you're already a decent canoeist, but it's kinda an unforgiving place to learn or push limits.

5. Vancouver has great rivers and boulder gardens to run, but little in the way of play spots or boofing geography - it sure would be fun to something like Baby Falls around.

Counter-arguments can made to all these points, but since you asked, there's a few thoughts. I have more too, but my baby is waking up from his nap.

P.

[Yukon]

Agree with some of your points for sure Pat.
Having a plastic boat does not make you any better boater than owning a Porsche makes you a race course driver. However it does open up a different kind of paddling and rivers. Which I am sure the West Coast/Vancouver Island has lots of. Mind you a lot of the stuff down there is steep. Paddling a smaller boat is a steeper learning curve and imo they are better for a certain kind of water. Viper's and Ocoees are great designs. I still regularly paddle my Viper 12 and they are better suited to bigger volume like the Chiliwack.

Its been so long since I paddled down there I really need to get back to compare my notes. I was just recently in Whistler and took a drive and there looked like lots of great paddling. Rutherford Creek looked like a blast. I am sure there must be some good falls to drop.

The Seymour has a lot to offer, a lot of rocks there would be great to boof but not in your kevlar viper. I have beat my Viper pretty hard and impressed with how it stands up, but it sure is a lot of boat to rock boof. I wish I had the Seymour in my back yard. I think the region has a lot to offer someone learning so not sure I agree with you that it is a unforgiving place to learn. You have a crazy amount of water with in 4 hours or so.

I just find it interesting that after several very good open boaters left the region it appears to be slow rebuilding. I could be totally wrong on that having not paddled with anyone down there. I suspect there is a lot of very good boaters still around. There is nothing wrong with good play runs on Grade 2&3 fun with not a lot of stress. Everyone paddles for their own reasons and harder water is not necessarily better.

What plastic boats are there in the region? I just bought the Spanish Fly Einar had, are there others or Preludes, sounds like a few L'edges and Octane 92 what else do people have.

[oc ender]

I'm not really"West Coast",however i have breatheren there so i consider myself west enough,and i'm scooping the Option for sale in Ottawa.Love my,or should i say, Ricks Remix,but time for a change of scenery.

As far as good boaters go,i had the pleasure of boating with great paddlers from Vancouver when we we're in Portland.

Congrats Rick,when you want to trade the l'edge,i have a Remix you'd love

Rick,Kootney rivers week in your plans?

[Einar]

Rick, you treacherous dog !!!

You have been flogging the C-1 cult for so long that I just dial you out, background noise... and now you go Edgy on us.
There was no sign of this flip flop, no discussion, no nuttin. Did you win the lottery?

I have been moving the fleet on myself and getting ready for changes. Yukon picked up the 'Fly and I have been trashing the kevlar Viper 11, no point in leaving it in the garage and just driving it on sunny days. Given my style that boat ain't gonna last but I'm sure having fun.

As to Vancouver, paddlers, and new boats I feel more positive. I overlap the era of Tyler Elm and gang. That crew was good, verrry good but we are being a little harsh on the new locals. Changes are happening fast, canoeists are climbing the learning curve very quickly and paddlers are jumping out of the club scene and travelling, soaking up the new ideas. Locally rivers that haven't seen a canoeist in years are being run repeatedly.
I guess that I am making my case from my long history but I feel paddling is doing great and will only get better, we just have to hit a critical mass. Having the Internet and a local forum is helping with that.
There is a problem with boats. We are cursed with far too many conservative hulls and not enough of the good new designs. It requires a few people to lay the money down, so far Kyle, Geoff, Rosco and now Rick have made the move. I am optimistic that others are not far behind.

[yarnellboat]

Yukon,

I mean unforgiving compared to Ontario I guess, because the rivers are continuous and ice-cold, so swimming has more consequences, so learning is slower.

There are great rivers with lots of rocks to boof, but not a lot of ledges or falls. Some creeks like Rutherford and many others may have stuff to drop, but you'd have be good enough to control the chaotic run-in and continue through the steep, cold rapid that follows! There are still lots of runs like that that never see open boats.

I didn't really overlap with Tyler et al, so maybe I'm being too harsh, but as a general statement, the only real way to continue momentum in a community is if the limit-pushers make the time/connection to mentor interested newbies (or if the the interested newbies inserted themselves to the higher-up crowd, though first you'd have to be aware of them). As it seems to be, if a crew of class IV canoeists retires or moves on, the next crowd is starting from zero. Because there are so few us, the stars have to align for somebody to find a like-minded canoeist with the desire & time to paddle lots and try new runs - it's not like there's a constant base of folks like that to join, it comes and goes, so sometimes a generation misses out a bit.

You now have a pretty good handle on the handful of plastic boats in the neighbourhood. Unfortunately the club mentality doesn't really embrace change - when somebody showed up in a Quake, people in H2Pros, Genesis, etc., paddling with straight blades, insisted on mocking it as a kayak.

Though I don't have a L'Edge, I too want to thank Craig/Esquif for designing a good new hull that is friendly to the over-200lbs gang, all the latest hulls before it were too wet & twitchy for my weight & preferences. To have a durable, low-water plastic boat some of us have looked to C-1, but we haven't done much more than look, and certaintly aren't up to III+ creeking in them. I stuck with the Ocoee, because with little amount I paddle these days, I'm not going to wear it out anyway, and prefer it's snappier speed/style. Plus, I couldn't fit my thighs into the bulkheads of any demo or borrowed L'Egdes - demo boats need straps.

Pat.

p.s. In the Portland/Easter video from LCCC, are the Alberta boys both in the C-1s? And Kudos to the OC boats that hung in there for some determined combat rolls.

[Einar]

On the Asnola Creek in flood, 1995
photos by Einar

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

. . . Changes are happening fast, canoeists are climbing the learning curve very quickly and paddlers are jumping out of the club scene and travelling, soaking up the new ideas . . . Having the Internet and a local forum is helping with that . . . We are cursed with far too many conservative hulls and not enough of the good new designs. It requires a few people to lay the money down, so far Kyle, Geoff, Rosco and now Rick have made the move. I am optimistic that others are not far behind.

My thanks to Einar, Pat, Paul, Jan, Ross and Trevor for jumping in to the discussion. Einar's summary says it well.

Actually, I'm not really on a mission to move north-west paddling out of any perceived time-warp. I just want to move myself out of a rut! And, no, I'm not planning to head out onto Class IV - V creeks anytime soon.

It's just that my personal retirement project is to paddle more, and paddle better. And if a new-technology OC-1 (or a little C-1) helps, then I'll find some coin to plank down. What else are pension cheques for?

My kids laugh about the garage fulla boats they're gonna inherit! My goal is to make sure the hulls are scuffed up a little!

Rick

[oc ender]

Pat...i was in the Remix(Ricks old c-1),the other guy is Cliff,from Portland.He outfitted that boat in the evening and did a great job.Now that guy is a class IV boater,very skilled and a really nice guy.My friend that came with me,Mike,i'm sorry to say is an unconverted butt boater that will unfortunately remain behind the times and keep his training wheels.I've tried,oh have i tried...

Rick...now you have a plastic boat,it automatically makes you a class IV paddler,says so in the manual.Einar and others should take the step and get one also,Paul Sani..Paul Sani..hello Paul! I have a blue Option coming to a new home soon,first big test will be on the Highwood,i'll know i like it after that.This way,during the Kootney Rivers Week,we all can take the plunge and run the creek i've had my eye on for years...Skookumchuck,class 3+,with several class IV's.I've been talking about it for a while,this year could be the one.Takers,takers??What's the worst that could happen...

We all should meet Yukon somewhere in the Koots for a spring trip,he's super skilled also,maybe teach us a few things...

[milkman]

To see a smattering of the canoes being used in the Pacific Northwest, here's a video from the recent get-together of the Vancouver and Portland canoe clubs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_vhPW2k ... WggbMd32nw The video starts out slow, but gets into more interesting rapids later. Particularly fun to watch are the runs through Alder Creek rapid on the Sandy River which only a few of the 18 boats we had out that day ran. (BTW, check out the fish that jumps behind the C1 paddler at 2:03.)

What's missing are Blackfly canoes. I know one LCCC member who is getting an Option and that may spur some sales. A good bit of the problem is the usual problem--no demo boats. When they are no demo boats, people end up trying each other's boats and continuing to buy the same designs until someone finally takes the step to buy a boat no one else has. The plastic boat that has most caught on here is an older design, the Prelude. There are a few L'edges as well. Who knows, maybe we'll see a wave of Blackfly canoe purchases in the next couple years.

[oc ender]

New excuse for us to get together again Mark,I'll have an Option in my hands soon.Perhaps I'll be the unofficial Alberta rep and visit certain shang- gri-las of the oc world and share the experience.

Love the fish jump,it was huge.

Paul

[YTcanoe]

West Kootenays - Slocan, Salmo, Little Slocan, Wilson, several other crazy creeks, Trail waves and Brilliant
Edge of Nelson, extra rooms and camping
Number of plastic boats I might let you demo - Option, Blackfly, CuFly, Prelude, Wheelboy, Y creeker, Delirious(if I get to outfitting it), etc
Come on down
I should be around til I head home in June

Throwdown comp at Rock Island next weekend, don't let me be the only canoe

[oc ender]

What's the creek that flows down the east side of Kootney Pass,it looks pretty awesome.Have you run it,I think the boys from Hellman have...

[Einar]

All right lets get into it.

The Skookumchuck Creek goes fine in an old style Viper 11, been there, done that.

But....it would have gone better in a L'Edge, with the same paddler, same skill set, same
attitude.
O.k., I'll give some room, some drops would have gone a lot better in a L'Edge, there was carnage, crazy attitude counts.
Can a new boat make a paddler better or does it just make the river easier?

i've watched Kyle's in a L'Edge on the Cap, Greg on the Wilson, and sampled a L'Edge in Idaho and my opinion is that a L'Edge would have made "some rivers" easier. It wouldn't have made me a better paddler, i'd still have my same crappy technique, but the boat would have been a better match to the event.
I would have survived more & played more and moved up a notch in river class and learned new skills because I was surviving and playing more and biting off bigger challenges and staying around to enjoy it. Just from watching C1B1 videos from the time of introduction of the L'Edge there seems to be a "higher average" of skill of paddlers dropping down Skookumchuck style creeks. (Maybe L'Edge owners tend to also buy GoPros)

I would 'probably' running a higher class of river in a L'Edge using the same skill set.
I would 'hopefully' become a better paddler.
But I might not, it is not automatic. I easily could just become a better carnage survivor and that is fine too.

In the transfer of the Fly to Yukon we have been discussing the L'Edge and plastic boats as he has used them in Tennessee, north of 60, and north of 49.

Slow plastic boats have limits on the bigger Western rivers but if you are willing to make the investment in technique for paddling creeks then the L'Edge is the hull, imho.
Lynn Creek is an automatic for a L'Edge run.
If you want to run bigger continuous western Rivers with lots of movement over distance then you might find the L'Edge a hassle.

As always the default no brainer answer is easy: buy-lot's-of-hulls, paddle everything!

[oc ender]

Impressed to hear that you've run Skookumchuck, then you'll lead.

Although I agree a skilled boater is able to perform in any boat that others might not have the ability to.However,I'd have to say that learning to paddle a shorter,friendlier boat makes running smaller volume rivers way easier..far less dramatic steering,catching small eddies easier and narrow lines.It makes sense, you have more room to maneuver. I also discovered, that at the end of the day,I'm not as tired since the strokes need to manover are less taxing.

Most of the rivers I paddle are small to medium volume which are well suited to small boats.The Red Deer at medium is only 60 -80cms,if I had big water around me a larger boat would be in order.

I also think the boat designs now allow for higher limits as far as paddlers ability to push onto higher classes of river.They are more forgiving and almost customized to suit certain conditions.Similar to kayaks,skill is still required,but they enhance ones skill set and allow for mistakes,that can be corrected.

[Yukon]

Hi OC Ender
You have paddled with YT Canoe who is in Nelson. I am Yukon in Whitehorse. YT Canoe and I have paddled togethor on some good runs including 2 weeks in Mexico.

The L'edge and other small boats do make some things easier to do and are more forgiving in many ways which allows you to paddle harder rivers BUT when you paddle harder rivers the Consequences can be much higher. A lot of paddlers are not willing to accept those consequences and that is totally fine with me I am not making any judgements. There a lot of factors that go into those decisions. Age, family, history, weather etc. For me the big thing is if people are out having a great time in a boat.

Great pics Einar, they bring back memories. I remember their boats and drysuit combinations well. They were a great group to paddle with. I learned tons and they would only invite me on stuff I could run and just a little bit more. Its too bad none of them are paddling much at all anymore. When they would go to more difficult they would not even talk about the run before hand so they would not have to say they were not comfortable with me coming. They paddled a lot and also travelled and paddled other places. I remember Tyler telling me about paddling in Tennessee. When you get to paddle on different kinds of water with different boaters you learn different things that you can bring home. Some of the things are relevant and some are not. In the last few years I have paddled in Ottawa, Mexico and North Carolina and Tenessee and the paddling in each place was very different. In each place I was out of my comfort zone for a time until I adapted. When I come home I look at the rivers and rapids here different with a fresh perspective. But it has not been cheap to do. A recent trip to Whistler reminded me of all the potential on the West Coast and got me thinking I need to do more paddling back there and may not need to travel so far for some great boating.