Pumps

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

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FullGnarlzOC
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Pumps

Post by FullGnarlzOC » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:23 pm

No pumps.
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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Pumps

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:32 pm

In time honored fashion, discuss...

(To explain, I've split tommy's post off of this thread... I don't have a problem with people having a circular arguments about the validity of using pumps, but I don't want it de-railing a thread from someone who's making a useful contribution to the community.)

FWIW; I think pumps are useful sometimes and the wrong solution to the problem other times... It's not useful to talk in absolutes, only teenagers are allowed to do that, before they get old and the ravages of age cause them to forget so much that they're not infallible anymore!
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NickParker
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Re: Pumps

Post by NickParker » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:12 pm

This reminds me of a similar thing that happened to rock climbing in the 70's. Free climbing was (is) defined as climbing a face from the bottom to the top, using only your hands and feet for progress. You trail a rope, and place temporary "protection" anchor points in the rock, clipping your rope through them, so your partner can catch you if you fall -- but the climb is not considered a valid "free climb" if you use any of the gear for rest or progress.

Previous generations of climbers had protected themselves using steel pitons hammered into crevices, but due to the the weight of that gear and the damage it did to the rock, by the 70's climbers had advanced to using shaped pieces of aluminum that were simply wedged into crevices (to be removed by the second climber).

At the top end of the free climbing difficulty scale, often the hardest part of the climb was hanging onto tiny features with one hand while trying to place adequate protection with the other. It was a limiting factor in just how far the difficulty scale could be pushed. Enter Ray Jardine, who invented a spring loaded camming device (later trademarked as "Friends"). These little devices could be stuffed into a crevice in second or two, and Ray used them to do first ascents of some of the hardest climbs of his day.

"Purists" who were much too full of themselves cried foul, saying Jardine's climbs weren't valid because he wasn't using the same gear they were. Those cries of foul are largely lost to history. Jardine wasn't cheating at all, he was just smart enough to figure out how to get past a roadblock without the need to redefine the game.

The people crying foul were hypocrites. They were already taking advantage of nylon ropes and slings, specialized shoes with sticky rubber, lightweight aluminum carabiners, and other advantages that previous climbers did not have. Maybe if among them there was one true purist, someone who did not use any of those things, they would have had a voice. But there was no such purist. Spring loaded camming devices are now standard equipment.

Is there a true paddling purist who can speak with authority about pumps? Someone who avoids short hull lengths, avoids polyethylene hulls, doesn't use bulkheads, stays away from lightweight composite paddles, and in general doesn't use any material advantage his predecessors did not have?

Didn't think so.

ian123
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Re: Pumps

Post by ian123 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:28 pm

Trying to keep your boat dry and running rapids with water in your boat is what distinguishes open canoes from decked boats. Stick a big skirt on a l'edge and it's no longer and open canoe. A pump is an electric skirt.

It's not an argument against technology or development... there's also nothing wrong with decked boats.
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FullGnarlzOC
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Re: Pumps

Post by FullGnarlzOC » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:40 pm

no pumps
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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Pumps

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:11 am

ian123 wrote:A pump is an electric skirt.
That's not actually true though, certainly no pump I've ever seen can pump out faster than the water can come in...

There's also the issue of why someone is paddling OC1, the OC vs C thread from not so long ago made it clear that plenty of people have no pretension of purism, and simply prefer the feel of an open canoe... for those people, a pump is obviously a good thing and will have no ideological downside.

I do like the idea of the electric skirt though... Do you reckon they'll make paddling gear like that soon?
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Re: Pumps

Post by jscottl67 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:33 am

How about airbags? :evil:

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PAC
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Re: Pumps

Post by PAC » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:49 am

Tommy needs a C1 = No Pumps! :-)
Tech = good being stuck in your ways is questionable! ;-) XOXOXO FN!
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Dave.E
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Re: Pumps

Post by Dave.E » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:09 am

I have no problem with people using pumps. I just think they are silly.

If I botch my line, it takes me all of 15 seconds to get out of my boat, empty it and get back in. A pump takes longer than that and it is another thing to worry about and rely on.
https://vimeo.com/user32086287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Pumps

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:19 am

Dave.E wrote:I have no problem with people using pumps. I just think they are silly.

If I botch my line, it takes me all of 15 seconds to get out of my boat, empty it and get back in. A pump takes longer than that and it is another thing to worry about and rely on.
That's fine, if the style of river you're running gives you a beach or rock in an eddy to get out on, or a partially submerged rock to lean onto and dump water... but if it's deep water and steep sides, or a fast flowing upland river with few or no eddies, that's when they become more convenient than stopping to dump water (a pump takes a minute or so to empty a full boat, leaning onto a rock until the water drains out takes literally seconds...)
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gumpy
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Re: Pumps

Post by gumpy » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:21 am

Nobody is scoring first descents because they use pumps. Those guys don't need pumps. Pumps are only useful for old men. Anyone else is just lazy. Learn to run clean lines. Learn to boof. Progress.

Since when do we discuss climbing here? Nick, do you climb with a parachute? Or boat with a skirt?
Last edited by gumpy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hazardharry
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Re: Pumps

Post by hazardharry » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:28 am

i think your all electrically challenged. :(
if its a flowin' i'm a goin' if its frozen i'm a dozin'

ian123
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Re: Pumps

Post by ian123 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:39 am

TheKrikkitWars wrote:That's not actually true though, certainly no pump I've ever seen can pump out faster than the water can come in...
Water still comes in but as soon as you have a few meters of slack water, it all leaves again!
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Re: Pumps

Post by ian123 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:40 am

hazardharry wrote:i think your all electrically challenged. :(
Cue the video!
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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Pumps

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:51 am

gumpy wrote:Nobody is scoring first descents because they use pumps. Those guys don't need pumps. Pumps are only useful for old men. Anyone else is just lazy. Learn to run clean lines. Learn to boof. Progress.

Since when do we discuss climbing here? Nick, do you climb with a parachute? Or boat with a skirt?
Nobody is paddling really hard high volume rivers in the new short OC1's either... in fact no-one has (publicly) pushed that facet of the sport anywhere near as hard as Nolan's Niagara Gorge run, which was a dam long time ago... Once again, the current focus of the "top flight paddler" remains relatively steep and low volume stuff especially when it comes to OC1, so prime territory for dumping over pumping.

It may also surprise you to know, but laziness is a virtue... In avoiding a simple repetitive task, you must first expend much more time, brainpower and energy creating a good solution; it's this "laziness" that powers innovation and delivers the future, by motivating you to outwit the way things are, shaping them to how you want them to be.

As for parachutes and climbing, I suspect you rather missed the point, the whole "climbing ethics" thing is to do with what methods you're using to protect yourself from hitting the ground hard if you fall off, generally speaking nearly always "with a rope"... But different approaches make it easier or harder to do certain routes.
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